Navigating Careers in HVAC: Jason Saunders’ Journey to the Top

This is this is straight straight straight out of Crumpton with your host, Greg Crumpton. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of straight out of Crumpton. I'm Gabby Bar, and I am joined by Mr. Greg Hampton. Greg, how are you doing today? Gabby doing great. Coming off a great Thanksgiving holiday here in in the Carolinas. Had some family up. Had some friends over. Just a good time. Little reflection time. We were, Connie and I were the youngest people in the house. So, it was it was, it was fun, you know, just kicking back and kinda going slow with the day and taking care of some folks who needed it. So had a good time. But super glad to be getting going again. It seems like forever since we did our last one, and I think it's been a week and a half. So glad to get going. But today, we got a really Really cool guest. Fella, who I've gotten to know over the last year. So I think it's gonna be a fun conversation. We're probably gonna learn a thing or two. Fantastic. Well, like Greg said, I am excited to introduce Jason Saunders. He is the president of indoor environmental services. Jason, how are you doing today? I am great. Fat and happy coming off the Thanksgiving holiday. So, Yeah. Getting back in the saddle and, excited to chat with you guys today. Thanks for having me. Well, Jason, we're glad you're here. I don't know Gabby and I probably couldn't ask for a better way to kick off our week, but, you know, that may be not so well set for you, but We have definitely appreciate you taking time to join us. Just wanted to to have you on and talk about some of the different things you know, you and I share a lot of things where we where we kinda came from in our past and how we got to where we are. And why don't you kick us off and and, tell us how you wound up being the president of a really cool HVAC company. Man, the the, the Cliff notes version. I, barely got out of high school and, realized college was not for me. So I went, went to a tech school. I actually went to the, original, Wyoming technical institute in Larme, Wyoming, and got a degree in diesel technology and business management, did about four or five years in the power generation industrial equipment field and had a, a couple buddies that were in the Pitefitter plumbers union and were sitting around drinking a beer one afternoon and and they were complaining about their nineteen dollar raise and how it just wasn't enough. And I've about fell out of my chair when when they had complained about that. So it took me a year of, begging and, pleading, and, they gave me a list of names of folks they knew after a year's worth effort ended up at a small union shop here in Northern California, called thermal air and, got started there. And, the irony of it is that my very first day at thermal air, the owner came out and introduced a handful of new employees and also announced to the the team that, the company had been bought by IES and that we would be merging in thirty days. So that was my my first day in the trade. And, yeah, started off in a in a truck, ended up, going from a service technician to, owner direct, project and maintenance sales rep. Did that for a few years and, found a niche in operations and, ended up back as superintendent in in service and, superintendent to assistant service manager, to service manager, to VP of service, to director of ops, and and kind of up through the ranks really. Fifteen years later, I'm I'm the president. So time flies when you're having fun and, fortunate to have such a good team here and be afforded the opportunities that, I've been afforded. So that's that's that's my short version, Greg. Sorry. That's a long one, but is short. Well, I I love that story because I too barely got out of high school. So you you had me, you had me on the jump from that part. But, So first of all, I'm I'm glad to get the work with you because, you know, you and I are peers now because ServiceVOG owns I. Yeah. So that's really fun for for us to be able to come together. But what's interesting to me, when I look at our companies and their fifty three, I think, right now, brands that we represent, under the service logic umbrella, When I look at the president's roles, you know, they're they're really bifurcated. You either have technical presidents like yourself, or you have more sales and engineering presidents? It's wild when you think about it. And I know you got to talk to some of the younger folks I saw your arrogant picture y'all posted your young guns club. Yeah. With with you and some of the younger presidents. What what I find really interesting is the number of steps that are required from the technician to the president's role or or even a, you know, a a any leadership role. There's so many darn steps to go through because we have so much to learn, you know, when and and you and I share that know, we started in the truck, go through the union thing. There there's so many stuffs to go through because we're simply not taught a lot of business or human side of the equation where thought theory and and air conditioning and you know, combustion and all all the things that make systems work. Yeah. But we has historically, haven't done a very good job of educating, people on dealing with people. And people dealing with businesses and bankers and and those relationships that become so important the further you move away from the windshield of the service truck, the more those relationships matter. So, you know, I I think for the sales model, people who went to sales or engineering route and wound up as a president, you know, they tended to be more socially skilled than we as technicians are from the from the get go simply because of the route, but I I love the the multi step, you know, you you said in your introduction that you found your niche in in operations. And I think that's so important that we have strong operations leaders, either in a president's role or in a, number two or, or, you know, vice president role because that's what makes service companies click. What's your take on what I just said? Does that make sense to you? Yeah. No. I I agree. I think one of the unique things about the the mechanical contracting trades in my experience is just the the various routes you can take. I've I've been mentored by, folks that started in in the truck and worked their way through or sales. I've seen, you know, educated engineers lead lead businesses. And so there's really not a dedicated path. Right? I I think that if you have a passion for what you're doing, a desire to to continue to learn and and push yourself and step out of your comfort zone, I think that the trade as a whole affords a lot of opportunity. And so, yeah, I I could not agree more. And do I think they teach you know, the the irony is, as I mentioned, you know, I college wasn't for me. One of one of my thoughts at that time was, you know, man, there's just no way I could sit at a desk. Eight hours a day, for the rest of my life. Right? And so jokes on me, twenty years later, I sit at a desk twelve hours a day. And I rarely talk about air conditioning. I I I really it's just maybe five percent of the job. You know, it's more of the the the people side, the business side, like you said, the banking relationship, ARAP balances, You know, there's there's much more to it. All of which, I got zero education at a technical school on And so really, like I said, I've been fortunate to have been afforded a great mentor or five throughout my career that we're willing to invest. If I was willing to put the time in and and put the work in, they they were willing to invest. So, you know, some of those mentors actually are are service logic leaders in in some of our other business entities. The guy that took me out of a out of a truck and and put me in sales as a gentleman named Mark Sanpio, he works for Brian Cox Mechanical down in San Diego, and, you know, has remained a mentor of mine to to this day. And had a had a very similar path to to you and I as well started in a truck and the into sales, etcetera. So, yeah, I I love the trade, man. It's a it's one of the the last blue collar trades I think out there that you could just make a killing at. And if you're willing to strap it on and and go to work day after day and and, do the best you can do day after day. You you tend to be pretty successful. Yeah. Agreed. One thing to reiterate we, collectively, in our companies, have proven that there's at least fifty three ways to do it right, you know, because When you and I were last together, we were in Arizona for our our annual meeting with with everybody. Two hundred and seventy five or so people I was sitting there listening to the conversations. And and, Gabby, what happens is all the all the presidents, like, like, Jason get up and They give, a kind of a state of the union of their company in a in a very brief format. What's going on, what they're going to do next year, yada yada yada. Really interesting. And and what's really interesting to me is to be able to sit back and listen to these fifty men, and and some of the ladies talk about what they're doing, and and to Jason's point, it's all under the HVAC umbrella, but it's all different stuff. It's really cool when you think about how dispersed the opportunities are for people to learn, for people to get training, for people to sell, for promotion, It's really, really and and y'all both know I'm passionate about the trades as well. So I I just think it's a blast that we get to hear so many different ways to do it right. Whether it's you go through the the truck and the windshield to get to your physician or you go through engineering school or whatever, you learn so much along the way, but If I could speak to that, Greg, what's amazing is, you know, you look at the diversity in those those companies under the umbrella and some some some of these companies specialize in nothing but cooling towers and fluid coolers. Right. That's all they do. You know, it's it's part of our business. It's a it's a small portion. We we have a a very, diverse market offering. We we everything from wineries to perform suitable to agro science, etcetera. And it's one of the things I get pretty excited about when I get talking to Young potential new hires or or greenies that we're looking to bring in the trade is, you know, people hear HVAC and it's like, okay, hot air cold air. Yeah. It's it's it's a lot more than that. You know, I've I've enjoyed genuinely been interested in learning how a Vintner or wine master processes their wine and and why do they wanna cool it to what temperature and how fast and how that impacts of the flavor of their their product? You know, I I could spend eight hours talking about wine production and and, tartaric acids and and the impact of temperature to flavor. And and we're in Napa Valley. It's one of, you know, we're we're a pretty big contractor up in that North Bay. And, part have been fortunate to partner with some pretty big wineries. And, it's just interesting. I mean, I I love it. And that's just one small segment of of the trade. So, yeah, a lot of diversity. It's it's been fun. You know, to your point, I I think a lot of people do think about hot attics and crawl spaces when they hear HVAC, and I've never personally I've never been paid to be in an attic. I've been in an attic before, but it's usually for free, like, either mine or or somebody I know. But, you know, whether it's data center, agriculture, medical science. I mean, there's so many different fun ways and When when I think about my career and I think about the the people that I'm, I'm earned up, like, my normal bubble, They're they're in all kinds of different things from data center to MRI, you know, cannabis growing, And I I'm so much of a believer of indoor farming is going to be a huge piece of our world not just growing weed, but growing vegetables for human consumption. So I I'm fascinated by that. The the whole fertigation and, the humidity control, that to me is also what I talk to young people about about the trades, the diversification that you can learn, and with the labor shortage that you know about as well as anybody, there there's an opportunity for us to really highlight the upside to our industry of what people can do if they choose to come and and join us. And Yeah. Yeah. You're gonna learn the boring crap about air conditioning people, you know. This is so freaking easy if you think about it in the grand team of things of what we're trying to do. We're taking twenty degrees worth of heat out of a room and blowing it outside. One means or another. Yep. But when you're talking about humidity control outside air, all the things that really are are you know, the to me, the funner piece of it, that's when it really gets, like, we're cooking, you know, like, that's what stimulates my brain, not Well, you know, fifty eight degree air out of a damn dot over some ball six year old guy's head. Yeah. The different products. Again, you know, it's a comfort coolings, you know, it's fun. But, yeah, we we have a large agro science portfolio as well, with, some of the big players and, and, yeah, these are mega farms in the central valley growing, cantaloupe, and watermelon, cucumbers and and you you name it, and we we get to be in very, precise environments. And we're tasked with controlling very, very closely, a specific, temperature humidity, etcetera, for for them to understand how best to grow their their produce. So, yeah, it's it's a blast. I mean, it's, you know, I I think it's it's a trade that could be misunderstood at times. Because I think, you know, out on the streets, people ask me what what I do at heating air conditioning. Oh, that's cool. You know? And it's, you know, yeah, it's It's cool, but think about everything in the world that needs to be heated or cooled. You would be shocked at at some of the stuff we gotta be involved in. So, yeah, I I think that a lot of people looking for a career, etcetera, don't don't understand how come complex, diverse, exciting, and challenging that the trade could be. And it's and it's one of the top paying trades. In Northern California, I think we have three out of five of the highest paid pipe trades union employees in the world. You know, we're we're out of the North Bay East Bay area, South Bay, Sacramento Valley. We have three offices. So You know, we're all over northern California. Cost of living here is not cheap. But, yeah, I mean, in after a five year apprenticeship, you can make two hundred thousand dollars. That's not a bad living for a twenty three, twenty five year old, individual. Right? With catalytic care and Yeah, Gabby. Are you looking for a job? We were looking for hard workers so far you've you've you've been stellar today. Thank you. But, yeah, I mean, it's it's it's great healthcare, take home truck, gas card tools, uniforms, and, and like you said, Greg, it's it's tough to find individuals that are willing to put the effort in to to be successful in the trade right now. So Yeah. We'll just have to keep digging and have to keep talking about it. Which is a whole another dang podcast worth of conversation. It is. Yeah. So you've mentioned earlier, Jason, and and I know that, you know, we've talked about this a little bit before. The mentors you had, Sampaio being one of them. So what did you take away from your mentors or what do you take away And I've often asked people when you get this worldly advice from mentors, How do you juxtapose that to what you've been thinking about? And how do you blend all that together to come up with a formula that you trust enough in to, you know, make the leap and follow that advice. Yeah. I think I I have been fortunate, first and foremost to have guys that that truly would empower you to make the the decision you you felt best, but firm enough to challenge you and and critique and and kind of talk through why you feel a certain way about a certain topic. Sometimes to an extreme, right, per paralysis by analysis. But in hindsight, what I find interesting is is probably the the three mentors that I've had, you know, all skinned the cat per se three different ways. They all had three different outlooks on how to run a service business. And now fifteen years later that the irony is you kinda deduce the same outcome by all all three outlooks. Right? They had their own way of running a KPI and workloads and pull through ratios and girls profits, etcetera. And kinda when you back into them, they all tie out to each other's math. And I kinda remember the realization of, oh, wow. There's, you know, I got three really smart guys. They know way more than me. They're all saying the same thing three different ways. And and I kind of like x, y, and z, and a, b, c, from this guy and that guy, and you put them together, and I now have you know, kind of my mix of of how I approach the business and what and what I believe, works. But the irony is you could probably tie my flaw fees and math out to the their three principles, and they would all all tie together. So, yeah, just just been been fortunate to have guys sharing sharing their knowledge, really. Yeah. I kinda go with that summation of what you just said to me is trust but verify and and kind of you go with it because you know you believe in them. And then, like, you wanna weigh your stuff against it, you know, like, I was I don't know why in the world I was thinking about this this morning, but I was thinking about burdened costs per hour. This is how crazy I am, Gabby. I'm laying in bed about to get off, and I gotta take my car to the dealership and what have you, but I'm sitting there thinking about burden cost per hour And how many man hours in a year? Just I'm like, Dave, what are you doing? You're not even you don't have to do this right now, but I was stuck on this problem internally. And I swear, man, I went back to, like, fifteen years ago, and I used my equation that I had in my head when I ran my company. And as soon as I got in the office, I I kinda put that up on the wall against what we use as service logic. It's the same outcome. It's just a different formula of getting there. So I I think there are tried and true methods, but, you know, we're a heck of a lot smarter as a company than in my damn little company was. I promise you. But it's cool that you also have that correlation between what worked, you know, as a forty man operation, versus what works for sixty six hundred people and and the numbers that work out to be the same. So pretty pretty cool and was glad to kinda check that off manually where I could get on with my day. Yeah. I mean, that's what's interesting about trade, is there so much that I would say is the same, from from the good old days. And then it's always changing and ever ever changing. And It's kind of a mix of pushing the limits of of technology and resources that you can use to help with efficiencies or standardization of processes. Versus, you know, what's always worked. I think I spoke to it, at that president's meeting. I actually started off my kind of spiel with you know, there's fifty fifty three folks in this room and we're throwing all of our KPIs up. And we're dead smack in the middle of it. I mean, we're IS's main KPIs that we run the business on or within a hundredth of a of a point, or a tenth of a percent. I mean, the it's just amazing to see a culmination of so many great minds and businesses that are so diverse in different offerings running at the same gross profits running with similar pull through ratios, running with similar growth metrics and numbers. And it's it's it was a blast to sit down, have a beer in talk shop, for a week. And everyone's approach is different, but yet our our results are very, very, very similar. And I just felt very empowered by that. And there was just such a wealth of wealth and knowledge here to tap into as well. So Yeah. It's it's very interesting. You know, what the common denominator is those two thousand eighty man hours per year per per tech. Yeah. So when you use that metric as a baseline, you can co I mean, you're gonna let let's say you use two thousand versus two thousand eighty with with holidays or what have you. But that puts everything in the realm of, pretty equal center point to make all of your formulations work. So it's pretty pretty cool. Alright. What what do you think about recruiting and how are you recruiting? And, you know, we talked a little bit about making sure that people knew that there was a a wide birth of opportunity within the trade. You know, when you being a union contractor out there on the West Coast, How do you have to recruit? Does the does the local do a good job with you guys? How are y'all positioned? Yeah. Some of our local partnerships are very strong and and good. They they have a a great group of folks that that have a a nice stable of, people looking to get into the trade. More times than not, we especially in the last couple of years, we've had to find our own talent. And so we've gone about that everything from Craig's list ads to indeed. Heck, I've you know, disconnect my laptop gone and and sat at the local parts house for an afternoon. And I've actually sat in the parking lot. Right? Step one, what's the guy's van look like? Hey, look at that. It's looks tidy well washed as uniforms tucked in, etcetera. Great start. Right? And, jump out of the truck, hand them a card, and and tell them a little bit about the company and our culture what we're looking for and, and gone from there. We've, you know, we've had a lot of success hiring a guy, from a residential non union shop, for example. And he's, been a stud and stellar. He fits our culture within three months. He's telling his, buddies at his old place, how great life is and usually can pick up one, two, three guys in in that fashion. But it it takes time. I mean, my foreman I meet with on a regular basis and they have to schedule time. If you're not spending time recruiting, you know, if you don't recruit or look for talent, until you need it, you're you're you're behind the the curve. Right? So years. Yeah. Years. Yeah. You gotta be, you know, always be looking. And, when you find a guy, you know, I faith in our sales team has an organization to keep our teams busy. And sometimes you gotta hire a guy before you have you have the work. But he's a guy, you know, you're gonna need a guy that you believe, you can count on moving forward in your organization and You gotta bet on him, right, in order to get him to to bet on you. So a little bit of everything, man. I mean, I wish I had secret sauce. One of my favorite places, I I would tell you is, like, a Jiffy lube. Again, clean-cut well mannered polite, well spoken kid, making more or less minimum wage, likes to work on cars, etcetera. Hey, man. You know, let let's talk. Let me tell you a little bit about a trade that's real similar to this and and pays you about five times as much. We've done well with that as well. And and, you know, I'm always getting oil changed on on cars, etcetera. So it's pretty easy. Yeah. I I think I call that gorilla tactics because I think that works really well, especially from to your point, the the car dealership, you know, or or the automotive places, car washes. You know, I've I've found those kids that really hustle outbox steakhouse, you know, the lady who brought the food to the car, you know, hell just look for stuff anywhere you can find it, but you know what looks and feels good. I've said for a long time, you know, hire hire the attitude with aptitude. Right? There I could teach you how to fix an air conditioner. At the end of the day, it's you know, technical sure. It's not that hard. Right? There's a process. There's pack of manuals that tell you how to do it. But I can't teach you or make you be polite, well spoken, good communicator, hardworking, punctual, you know, the the soft skill set. Right. And so to your point, you know, like you said, outback steakhouse, jiffy lube, whatever that is, you know, I'm usually not impressed by the, hey, look at how clean my oil is. That that's the least of my worries. Right? It's, hey, this kid came out, communicated well, spoke well, looked me in the eyes, shook my hand, thanked me for the business, opened the door for me, etcetera, that those type of skill sets go a long way. So I'm curious, you know, we I talked to Eric Bolen, our our fellow who runs our edge platform, which is our in house training program. I talked to Eric a lot about the soft skills that you know, are so important in every role, not just technical, but, you know, we've got project managers who are the same age of technicians who think looking at the top of their shoes and their shoelaces is good communication, you know, and and Shane we talked about Shane and his lack of barbecue knowledge, but he has really good knowledge in how to help people communicate when they're in the sales role. And I hope that, and I'd be curious of your take on this. Are the skilled trades, programs being union, non union tech schools, what have you? Even OEM schools, are are they in your mind leaning towards making sure that We're teaching young folks how to communicate as well as how to replace the proper circuit board. I think broadly and probably unfairly, no. It's not talked about. It's not discussed enough. Do I think that there's a a night's worth of curriculum? A five year apprenticeship that says, hey, customer service. Right? Sure. You know, it's a five year apprenticeship of going over intimate details of equipment. Is what it takes to be a competent journeyman. Right? And then you spend a career trying to trying to learn the rest. And that's, in in my opinion, forty percent of the job. I I think over half of it is the soft skills communication paperwork, etcetera. So, it's not hot enough. I ironically actually spend time at some of my local union partners teaching a class to first year guys. It's a kind of a HVAC business behind the scenes. This is this is how things really work guys. You know, I I started off with, look around the room, in front of you, to your left, to your right, etcetera, and the probably fifty percent you guys would be gone, by the time you graduate in five years. Life happens. Right? This trade's not for everyone in the room. I wish it was. But decisions you make outside of work, in work, day to day, going out and partying the night before showing up to work hungover, whatever that is, impact your career and your future in this trade. And it's a it's a pretty nitty gritty, very blue collar discussion. I I don't hold a whole lot back. In almost every single one of my opportunities to be promoted, I had to take a pay cut. That's just what it was. Now the the opportunity was bet on yourself. If if I succeed and hit the numbers or get the result, then you make more. Sure. Sometimes I I made more. Other times I I didn't, but that's just how it is. When I was an apprentice, I carried my journeyman's tools to the rooftop. I didn't care. I didn't care if the apprentices, thought I was the journeyman's, go for or, you know, they had an opinion on it. It really didn't matter. At the end of the day, when there was a job to be done, I I would be preferred. I'd be willing to give a little bit of time to get the job done, and I stayed very busy. I think that there is a lack of discussion on the topic of customer service and and really what it takes to make it in the trade. I'll love that you do that. I think that's so impactful. I'll I'll work when I was an apprentice. I'll work for a company that did have good customer service. I don't wanna call it a culture, but it was a mindset. Yeah. Yeah. So we we learned early you know, how to how to operate in a service environment. There's a friend of mine, butch D. He works for actually, he works for our competitor in in, Pittsburgh. But he and I have been friends for many, many years, and butch, does a customer service class four premises at local, I think it's four forty nine up in Pittsburgh. But when I was in my own business, when I ran it, I hired Butch a couple of times to come down and and on his vacation days, and and do in house training for us on that topic. I can talk about it, and you know this as as being the boss. You can talk about stuff that just You know, eventually, you wind up sounding like Charlie Brown Charlie Brown's mom, but when you bring in someone to focus on a topic, you know, a lot of times, it has a really nice impact. And we did that with Butch a few times, and I still keep in touch some of those young guys we had back then, and that was an impactful day for them. Or, you know, we've done stuff like taking a dollar bill. And cutting it up into a hundred pieces. And then showing where those percentages of that dollar bill go to, whether it be pay, truck, insurance, all those different buckets when when because you just don't get that when you're learning, you know, vapor compression cycles in school. But it's super important as a as a worker to understand why it matters to get done in eight hours when the job was you know, based on eight hours work. So I I think all that's good. So I applaud you for for taking time to do that. It should be mandatory probably for locals. But Yeah. I'm pushing. Right? It's a it's a start. I think you know, I think it's becoming more of a prevalent topic. And I think that the customer's, expectations of their vendors, whether it's a mechanic or janitorial landscape is significantly higher than it used to be. Transparency is demanded, communications expected, And and I think that that's why we've we've fared well in our markets as we've, you know, focused on those things, and we're early adopters of technology that that that afforded great communication and transparency. So, yeah, I I think that we're gonna get there one way or another. Do I wish local partners, even my technical school, right, biotech. Yeah. We talk customer service, but not real life. You know, hey, start a conversation off with a smile. Look them in the eyes, you know, but that's heck twenty five years ago. But, yeah, couldn't agree more. So we I I brought in customers to do the same thing. Like, good trusted customers. You know, I brought him in David Kids, a guy that comes to mind, been a customer and a friend for, god, I don't know, since nineteen ninety nine would just pitch questions to him. My David, what what matters when you're running a data center that has multi million dollar impact, you know, when you're down. What matters to you? And he's, like, you know, really little stuff like knowing where the heck you're at and what you're planning on doing that day. And, you know, just the basic communication skills that we take granted a lot of time. So I I love that piece of it. That's one of the things Greg I I would say. I mean, to your listeners that are interested in this stuff. I I think we take a lot of things for granted with our customers as a whole. I think the simple question of and and brush up of what is your expectation. The smallest of things matter, right, and in the data center, oh, hey, by the way, Make sure you have a fire permit, and the fire suppression system's locked out tag tagged out. Boy, oh boy, that could make or break a day real quick. And, you know, the customers and it changes. Right? The customer gets a new boss. Sometimes your guy, all of a sudden, has a new owner. And things change. And if you don't ask, You usually get left in the dust. Right? So, you know, communications key for sure. Yeah. It it's amazing to me how company dynamics can change, not with their SOP manual of how you act when you're on campus, but how you act with a certain facility manager running that SOP, you know, and and it's just like us. I mean, there's different personalities and different roles, and you have to really understand that. I mean, I've got a dear friend who got fired because he had a subcontractor that threw the wrong circuit breaker. Scott was a vice president for a well known data center. He had the SOP and and they just didn't follow it, but, you know, people lose jobs over stuff like that. Let alone their life if you have an electrical event, but gotta communicate for sure. Yeah. Jason, I'm I'm really curious. I've been thinking about this since we started talking, but the team you've got there IS So first of all, I guess I'll ask how do you think they perceive you as a leader? And I don't mean that you're a hard ass because I know you are when you need to be and and you're a big old teddy bear when you need to be. But How do you think your team looks at you as a guy who understands many aspects of the business that you run? Man, I, I would hope fair, and firm. You know, I've coined a saying or heard it or stolen it recently. You know, I I tend to focus a lot of time in a couple core competencies. One is a measurable, sustainable, and repeatable. Right? If I could spend some time, measuring a business, desire outcome, etcetera, understanding how to repeat it good and or bad. Right? How to avoid the bad scenario? And then is that a sustainable practice? Right? Is this because one time, hey, wow. We did it once. Doesn't do you a lot of good. And then I I try to spend a bit of time getting down to kind of the facts and away from feelings. Right? And so my team at times, you know, stop a conversation mid sentence where, you know, I'll hear something like, I think or I'm I'm pretty sure. I if I remember right, the pressure drop was axed. It's like, boke, time out. Let's let's get to the bottom. I I'm I'm not a point the finger and blame by any means. We make mistakes. I've I make them on a daily, weekly, monthly basis, but the value in the exercises understanding how you had success or how you had a failure. Right? Some of our failures, uh-oh, cost millions of dollars, throughout the years. Right? That that's one heck of a college education. So let's Let's learn from it. At very least, we we spent two hundred thousand dollars in a pipe that broke and blah blah blah. Okay. Great. Let's figure out how that is never gonna happen again. And I'm not there to berate or beat someone over the head, but usually there's there's a cause. Right? Whether it's a safety issue or or a job that went sideways. And so I I would hope that, you know, my my team feels supported. I'm I'm definitely from the trade guy. You know, come come in my office, stand on my desk. Y'all screen cuss. It Let's get let's get through this. Right? I I would hope that I'm approachable and, a fun. Honestly, you know, I kinda look at the team and you know, my job is to work for them, empower them to succeed, help undercover, or uncover, identify roadblocks or obstacles they're facing, do the best I can to overcome those obstacles with them. If if they're come to work, having fun, feel empowered, and invested in, they're gonna go kick some ass, man. And if they're winning, then typically the company in in in myself or are are doing the right things and and where we're winning. So, it it kind of boil it down to as basic as you can. You know, I I want want the employees to come to work. Feel valued because I I'm blessed to have such a great team, around me, of guys that I've worked with for years, some of which I work for. Right? Jokes on them now now they work for me. So pay paybacks coming. Right? No. But, no, they're great guys. A wealth and knowledge, they compliment compliment me, well. And I don't want a bunch of yes, man. I I appreciate different perspectives from different corners of the room. I definitely have blinders on in some disciplines and scenarios as as do they, and, constructive you know, criticism and and healthy skepticism pushing back on each other, and then making a collaborative decision for the for the benefit of our customers and and collective employee workforce is the best we could do. So, yeah, sorry for the long winded answer, but I I think that's What what I hope they would say anyway? Well, I think it's consistent with what I hear them say when I talk to others that that work at IES know, you you bring up a point that we don't do enough these days, which is get in the room and have a real conversation because everybody's so damn scared of hurting other's feelings, but when you can gather a group of adults that have an adult mindset that can have conversation without getting rattled Man, you can come up with some really interesting ways to solve problems. And I'm not gonna get into the whole social dilemma of feelings and what have you because that's a tar pit you never get out of these days, but just having a group you know, from from the different disciplines within your business, to sit there and talk about a problem and And and that kinda gives us back to what you were saying earlier with your mentors. Take a little bit of a, b, and c, a little bit x, y, and z. And put it together and see what works best, not, you know, what hoop you can jump through or whatever. But what are we trying to solve and have a real conversation. Like, there's things that we all suck at. And if we can embrace the suck long enough for me to listen to you and you help get through my thick head of why that's not a good idea, and maybe open to it and say, you know what? You're right. And and you come up with a real solution. I just I feel bad that we've kinda got ourselves into a a a corner as a populist where we we can't do that as freely. And I hope that people build their infrastructure of people where you can do that in a safe environment to solve problems for your customer. You know, what, like, like, what you guys do at IES as a service logic company, it doesn't matter to service logic as long as you're doing it legally and ethically and for the right reason. Not gonna tell you how to go solve that two hundred thousand dollar broken pipe MBA program you just bought for five people. But You know, that's what it can boil down to if you use it the right way. And it's mechanical. We are gonna have problems. We are gonna break we are gonna have to fix stuff. It's gonna be ugly sometimes, but I think your point of getting to the root cause sharing the root cause, unegotistically, unbashingly, and take it for what you're, you know, I remember so well a couple of really bad things that happened for contractors I worked for. I'll I'll tell you quickly as we get we're we're coming up on the top of the hour, but I'll work for a company in the Atlanta market that when they were bidding Concourse e at Hartsfield Airport, which is a big concourse, When they were putting the labor estimate together, the damn man hours did not carry over into the estimate. So day one, before anybody set foot on the job, they were over a million dollars in the hole. And the company, you know, tried to say, hey, we screwed up. Can we get out of this? And because it was a public deal, they said, no. You can't get out of it. You're bound to the agreement. Our our company manned up or womaned up, And we went to work, and we broke even on that job. Because they outsmarted some of the problems, we worked three years for free but the reputation was intact, but there was a lot of lessons learned from that, like backup software, more than one set of eyes on x y z. So I think that if we take our our challenges And and the we talk about doing stuff like this all the time. Learn from your mistakes, but are we really learning from them? So If you are, god bless you. God bless anybody willing to invest in themselves through just being laying your ego at the door and and having a little humility and saying, yep. Blue that one. Let's learn something from it. Yeah. For sure. And that's, you know, like I said, I'm I'm fortunate to be surrounded by a bunch of guys that are way smarter than me. And, you know, I wanna be a steward of that communication. I wanna ask hard questions and expect, hard questions to be asked of me. And at the end of the day, let's let's leave the room, understand what gonna do different call call a very clear loud and play, and let's go kick some butt. No. We're crying over spilt milk. Right? You learn learn from it. Let's let's not knock the cup over again. It's hand to hand combat out there. The the market is a brutal. And, you gotta pick yourself up and and get back after it. So Yeah. I love it. Well, man, I love that mentality. I love what you're doing out there. I love that you're with us doing it and that I get to watch you guys perform. Because we have, you know, I I think I told you this, if not, I will now, but I'm so proud of our young presidents that are coming into our companies because we have a lot of great legacy companies. But people age out, you know, my peers, baby boomers are ready to go. And, it's so important for us from a a a continuity, for a culture for customer service. There's a lot of reasons that we have to make sure that the the right folks are winding up in the right seats. And I'm just so thrilled with with some of the latest things that are going on in our company is you. And, you know, I know that, y'all have the tall club Gabby, you all know this from Jason's, like, seven feet tall. He's a big boy. Yeah. But so there him and and two of our other presidents, Kevin, and, Craig Harrison at HVH. They are all standing there side by side, and they're literally all that six foot six. It was, like, take a normal human beside them, and it looked like a little kid beside them. But Yeah. We're starting a basketball team. I I Company basketball team's been the the MO. So Travel cost maybe a bitch on that. I'm not sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're looking for a local league. That's the problem. We're spread across country. Yeah. That there's four presidents under forty all over six four. That's the statistics. Oh, yeah. Jonathan. Well, again, I'm I'm proud for what you guys are getting to do, and it's fun to be, working with you doing it. So But I really, I just I wanna say thank you for taking time with us today and talk a little bit about how you got here and what what makes you tick and what makes IES tick so well. And Yeah. Thank you. Hat soft to you, my friend. Yeah. Think thanks for having me and Yeah. It's exciting. It's exciting trade. You know, the future, for for IES service logics looking pretty dinged bright nowadays. And so just, blessed to have the opportunities again laid out in front of me and and continue to network and and, work with a lot of the peers I've gotten to meet last year's been been absolutely stellar. So thank you for your support and and belief and and the opportunity to come on this show and top shop, man. It's always a good time. Absolutely. It is. Well, Gabby, there you go. We're wrapping up another, what I'd like to refer to as a beautiful co podcast. So you may have other work for it. Well, I agree with your description, epic, I think it is also a beautiful podcast. So to wrap up, like Greg said, another beautiful episode, Jason, thanks again for joining us. It's been really great listening to your story as well as, you know, hearing how you recruit hearing what, you know, your leadership style is like and how your colleagues and employees are we're responding to it. It's always great to always great to learn something new and to hear a different perspective. So thank you again for that. As for everyone else, thank you for joining us for another episode of straight out of Crumpton. For more episode like this, be sure to subscribe through Apple or Spotify Podcasts, and don't forget to check out greg crumpton dot com for all of your Greg Grumpton content.