A Teacher’s Journey Through Grief: Remembering the Santa Fe Shooting

Welcome to the secured podcast. I'm Mike Matranga. We're in the ASAP Studio here in Houston, Texas. Today, we have Flo Rice with us. Hello. Thank you for joining us. Well, thank you. I am just it's a privilege to be here with you, Mike. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. So, Flo, we wanna talk to you today about the Santa Fe tragedy in May eighteenth, two thousand eighteen. You were a victim in that horrific tragedy that we continue to see happening in the United States on a regular basis. It seems like these particular types of things are are not going away. And, you know, we, we're living in a society which is becoming more violent every day. We have politics that are dividing us. And I believe frankly, are getting in the way of any type of real progress, both the state and federal levels. So do you mind sharing with us just kind of your story initially starting out with your story and, you know, May eighteenth of two thousand eighteen and We'll walk through a few things. I was a substitute teacher at Santa Fe High School. In twenty eighteen, that was I was kind of thinking that might be my last year. My youngest daughter was graduating and, that was the last Friday of the school year. And I was in the I was gonna be in the gym that day. Mhmm. As substitute general, we didn't have any kind of training. We had no training whatsoever on emergency practices. We didn't have a key to any door We had already my anxiety had been high after Parkland because it really brought back the concern of shootings. Then we'd had some we'd had a scare at the school and a lock down, and they never determined what that was. Right. Just a couple months before. But at that point, it really made me more aware I started looking around my classroom and thinking about I can't lock a door vest for keys for years. So I'll just have to figure out how to barricade this room. So every class I sat in, I would look around the room and think, What furniture do I have? Do I have enough students to help me push this furniture? So I I was really looking forward to being out of the school, at the end of two two thousand eighteen. Right. You said in so Parkland happened February where? Fourteenth of two thousand eighteen. Uh-huh. And then Santa Fe happened May eighteenth of two thousand and eighteen. You said you all had a scare prior to the actual tragedy at Santa Fe. So any any between February and May, When do you remember if it was, you know, March, April, your call, how far? I think it was a couple weeks after parkland. So maybe in March. Okay. And so It's got a lockdown. Parkland happens in February. In March, you guys have a scare that sent the school into a lockdown and then in May the tragedy. So let's backtrack to the scare. After the scare, You said there was no resolution to that? Right. Okay. And even though there was no resolution, I know you talked about not having a key or access to certain things to even lock down. After the scare, did anything change where you ever trained on how to lock down what the lockdown meant, where to go, how to access rooms, what to do? Absolutely nothing. You know, of course, we as a substitute, you can only push for keys so hard because you'll then you'll just lose your job if you become an issue. So Right. Yeah. No. Still no keys to lock any doors. Had absolutely no train. We accept the fire drill. That's we knew. Right. How to do? So at that time, you're familiar with the standard response protocol. At that time, it was locked down, locked out shelter in place, hold and evacuate. When you did when you became a substitute teacher, did y'all undergo any type of training that would articulate what each one of those did -- No. -- meant or what you're supposed to do? Absolutely. Nothing. Okay. Well, good. So I guess what I'm getting at is you you had parkland, you had the scare. There was never any prior training. There was never any training after the care, and then you have Santa Fe happen, which you were a victim. So we'll get back into the training component here in a little bit. Talk about that and kind of how we've progressed moving forward here in the state and throughout the nation since May eighteenth, two thousand eighteen. But take us to the morning of the shooting. You you mind talking about that a little bit? Yeah. So that morning when I walked in to school, I saw Anne Perkins and Cynthia Tisdell. They were chatting in the hall. I stopped. We talked about our classes for the day, and then Cynthia Tisdale went into the art room. And Anne and I were in the gym. Just not that far down the hall. Just there was a few locker rooms in between us and the art room. But the kids were in there playing basketball. We didn't hear anything, unusual. Then the fire alarm went off, which we noted was strange because there had been a fire drill the week before. So that should have been a clue, but we just got up and got the kids and started heading down to the closest doorway and had girls basketball. She was her kid. She only had a few kids. They were a little further down than I was. And the last thing I remember, I glanced down the hall, saw Anne. I was still trying to get some of the boys were still trying to make their last basket. Right. You know, and trying to get them in the hall. When The sound I heard, I didn't know it was a gunshot. I thought it was a bomb because the sound was just vibrated through my whole body. It was deafening. I did not know what was going on. And I I somewhat blacked out. I I knew where I was and I knew the door was ahead of me, but I I I don't remember seeing anything after that point, but I just remember the door was in front of me. I kept going. I heard again that sound. I thought it was another bomb blast, and I felt myself falling. And I thought it was from the blast, you know, kind of like you see on TV and you're in slow motion and you're falling. Right. And I hit the ground face first. And I look up, and if you feed ahead of me on the sidewalk, because I've fallen kinda through the outside doorway. I see Anne, and she she looked like she just laid down on the sidewalk and she's facing away from me. I can't see anything wrong. I just see her back, and it's dead silence. All of a sudden, and I'm totally confused because I try to move. I can't. I I managed to sit up and I realized one of my legs is completely twisted and broken. And then I look at my genes and realize there were bloody bullet holes in my genes. That was more horrific than thinking there was a bomb because then I knew someone was hunting me. They had shot me and they were probably just feet from me around the corner where I I didn't know. But the sheer horror was just nothing like I had ever felt before. I immediately felt like I needed to get out of the doorway because this shooter could be right on my coming right behind me. I still had my bag that I grabbed, and I got my phone out. And I drugged myself as best I could since I was shot through both legs out of the doorway. And what I kind of thought was away from the the shooting, but, I was literally underneath the window I had been we had been shot through. And I called called my husband Scott. I I didn't think to call nine one one. I just called him. He didn't answer the first time. And I laid on my phone literally because I was if the shooter came back through, I didn't want him to see me. I wanted him to go past me and not shoot me again. And so moving as little as I could, laying on the ground, I called him again and told him I had been shot and then hung up. And, because I was so afraid the shooter I could hear the glass still falling through the window that he shot me through, and I was afraid he was just gonna be over me looking at me shooting me again. So I I called Scott two or three times trying to explain to him where I was. And then at some point, I heard an officer running Yeah. I knew it was an officer. I could, you know, hear his gear. And I started to move and then I heard his radio say, we don't have eyes on the shooter. So then I was afraid to move. I didn't know what do. I mean, I knew there was at least, you know, one officer nearby, but I they never came over and, checked on me. They didn't touch me in any way I did not communicate with them. Was the fire alarm still going off at this time? The whole time, the Yeah. The fire alarm is is was blaring. And then I could hear gunfire. I heard more gunfire. Continued gunfire. So I I had no clue what was going on, you know, and the horror that was going on in the art room on the other side of the wall from me. It's just so hard to prehend when you're when you're in it. And all I knew was I I was on the outside of the building now and I wanted I wanted out of there. And then eventually, I heard I heard our car and Scott managed to find me. So how did you so you you talked about running and feeling like you were falling and then falling face first at that point, you were I'm assuming you're kind of in the threshold of the door -- Mhmm. -- half in, half out when you realized that you had been shot -- Yes. -- your legs were bleeding through your jeans. And you said you heard an officer. Did that officer stop to assist you? No. Didn't, didn't stop the check, like, your vitals or see if you had a pulse? No. Were you sitting up at that point, or were you still laying down? Well, I was laying down. I, as soon as, I was realized I had been shot. I was in the doorway. I dragged myself out of the doorway laid down and then that's when I I heard at some point then an officer come by. Okay. I knew he was very close. I mean, he was right there. Right. It wasn't in the distance. I knew he was right next to me somewhere. Right. And you described officer banda. Can you talk about his involvement? Yes. K. I heard my husband pull up in the car and I heard him yelling That's my wife. Something went on. I didn't know what. And then I hear Scott say, she's alive. Mhmm. And at that point, then officer banda came over and touched my shoulder I laid there with my eyes closed. I opened my eyes and he said put your arms around my neck. And I did. And he scooped me up and ran and took me to the car. But he apparently, was under the impression from it that I was dead. Another officer had told him that Anne and I were both But no one had ever checked your pulse to see if you were deceased. So they just assumed that. Right. You know, which makes me kind of wonder you know, in other tragedies. Are we doing something wrong? Now, we understand that, you know, you've gotta stop the killing. You gotta the shooting. But one of the things that that I have always asked is why do we have to have an influx of two hundred, three hundred officers to address a single or even a two shooters. At some point law enforcement has to get disciplined enough to know it doesn't take two hundred people to contain, a single or or even two shooters that there are secondary actions, which are equally as important, such as rendering aid to the wounded. You know, one of the things that we talk about at our company is empowering people and we'll get into talking about training individuals here in just a little bit. But, let me ask, was, miss Perkins? Was she a substitute teacher as well? Yes. Okay. So I know that from that event, there's been some legislation here in the state of Texas, that you've been an advocate for yourself, your husband, and other people have been advocating war. And, we'd always executive director of security at Texas City. We had you come talk about, you know, the importance of substitute teachers. You know, one of the things that that people don't understand is substitute teachers are absolutely crucial in public education. They fill the gap when, you know, staff and manpower can't be filled. And so you know, I know one of the things that we did in two thousand eighteen was, we went to a system that that, we put access control readers on every on every classroom door, every exterior door throughout our district. We were one of the first districts to do that at that magnitude because we wanted to give substitute teachers the ability to access those doors, in the event of a prices any door essentially, therefore increasing their chances of survival. And so I know you came and spoke to us and we're gracious to have you, but can you talk to us about the legislation that you've been advocating for substitute teachers for? Sure. Yeah. And and I wanna mention Had I gone back into the school system? Your school would have been the only one in Texas City I would go to. Well, I appreciate it. It it was amazing. And that that I would have felt safe there, but I just don't see that that anyone else has achieved that level. I appreciate it. Would it would it surprise you to learn that a lot of that stuff that I did has been changed significantly? Due to personal opinion and different philosophies. Yeah. That that's sad. That's a sad. It's a tragedy. But, you know, it is what it is. You know, we've gotta take the good with the bad and, you know, keep fighting the fight. And so, but thank you. I appreciate that. People don't realize You know, on any given day, you could have an entire wing of a school full of substitute teachers. Yeah. Because every English teacher is out. You know, for training. And, you know, when that happened at Santa Fe, that no door was gonna get locked. If their bail locked down. We nothing was going to happen. We had no way to protect those kids because they did not trust us with a key, but yet we were trusted with the the lives of those children. Yeah. And that's a that's a tragedy. I mean, you know, in your particular case, you know, you had nowhere to hide. Right. I don't I don't even know, you know, what do you do in a gym? Yeah. Yeah. We had And those are things that I think through the advocacy that you and your husband and others have been doing has changed I don't think we're there yet. I don't think that that every school district in the state of Texas or in the nation has a plan for that. Those these are the little the little things that mean a lot that they're not thinking about as substitute teachers. You know, like you said, at any given time, you could have a whole wing of of, of substitute teachers in an area that has not been properly trained in the SRP or or just basic protocols and what to do, what not to do, or even how to secure themselves and their kids in a classroom. Right. And so, talk to us about the advocacy component of what you guys have been doing the last five years. And how things have changed from a legislative standpoint? Well, after the shooting, we met with our state representative, Bonan. He came to my home. He was very kind and listened to my story. We talked about the issue with the keys. Although the keys didn't impact me that day as far as having a key to the gym, Cynthia Tisdale should have had a key to the art room. She should have had her art room blocked. She shoulda had a key that would have locked the closets and, she lost her life that day. Also, we knew that there were many classrooms that did not have working phones. And one of those classrooms was next to the art room. There was a substitute teacher in there. He could not call nine one one. There was no cell service. And the classroom phone would not call nine one one. So his he didn't know what to do. He saw the the shooter. His Only choice was to pull the fire alarm and that's why the fire alarm went off because he was trying to get help to that part of the building So these are the issues that I tried to bring to the forefront. Simple things that could be changed as a result, the the governor had passed SB eleven School Safety Bill. Which we thought was great. I mean, it encompassed threat assessment, mental health, and then the small things that had personally impacted substitutes that we would have access -- Right. -- to lock doors and phones would work. But what we didn't know, and I think Mike, you're the one that actually clued us in on this. Was that the schools really did not have to follow it. Mhmm. We thought it was a law. Governor signed it. You have to do it. And then you mentioned that you'd heard rumblings that school districts were refusing to do it. So Scott and I went to the school safety center and talked to Kathy. And she explained to us that actually did not have any authority over the schools. We went to Mike Marath at the TEA and he said the same thing. There was no one to hold the schools accountable if they did not follow these safety guidelines. So it was it was meaningless. Yeah. You know, that everything we worked for after the shooting that we thought would be done to save the next school was totally meaningless. Yeah. You know, myself and and you and Scott and others, had been very involved in the legislative process from two thousand eighteen until current day you know, my first day on the job, June eleventh of two thousand eighteen after, you know, being offered the position at Texas City, the first day I was at the Senate talking about, you know, from my perspective as a as a former United States Secret Service agent, and my perspective of, you know, how we get a hold of this. The problem is is that we have politicians on the left that are talking about defunding police, or removing law enforcement from the school environment. And then on the right, you've got, you know, politicians that are pushing political narratives to arm more teachers or put an officer in every in every, school, which I I I I'm okay with that. But providing more resources like ballistic shields and whatnot when, in fact, what we know through data and research of at least three decades is that how we get held to this is through the comprehensive planning and the behavioral analysis of people who want to do harm, and you know, I've been testified, you know, you know, I've testified multiple times before the Senate, and I always say the same thing. The foundational component to all of this is behavioral threat assessment, understanding who wants to do harm and why, and then having a comprehensive plan to include substitute teachers as if they are full time employees, giving them the same access, identifying who your assets are, having conversations prior to an event happening of whose roles, whose responsibilities, you know, or what that what those roles and responsibilities are and how they're defined so that on the day that it happens, you don't have another Santa Fe or another Yvali where just people are self dispatching and doing whatever it is that they feel needs to be done, when in reality, it needs to be a well, well orchestrated event. Mhmm. And it's hard to do that because we have law enforcement, ideology is that the more officers we have, the better position that we're in, and I disagree with that. I think that it's great to have three hundred officers to show up. But what's not good is that this idea of everyone is going to be the person who takes out the shooter or contains the shooter. It's that's just that's that's not a reality. The reality is there's only gonna be a couple people that that are needed or required to do that. But there's other secondary actions that those other two hundred and eighty officers need to be doing like establishing a perimeter, communicating with parents, establishing the reunification zone, or area. More importantly, there's other secondary actions that need to happen on the scene, like rendering aid to you. Like you said, you heard an officer running. You could hear them because of their their, you know, equipment but they assume that you were deceased. But no one even stopped to check your pulse see if you're vitals, if you even have vitals, which leads me to wonder of all of these events to include Santa Fe were there some people there that could have been saved if those officers had not been fixated on going always to the shooter, but instead rendering aid, you're just as much a hero to save a life as it is to take a life. And, I think that's one of the problems that we're that we are seeing in the United States that no one wants to talk about because it's a delicate area. It's like no one wants to talk bad about a veteran. No one wants to talk bad about a law enforcement officer or why they do certain things But this is, I believe, a training block that we're running into. And, you know, people can disagree with me all day long, but if you look at historical data of Columbine, of Sandy Hook, of Parkland, of Santa Fe, of Yavalde, this mentality of everyone's self dispatching and going to the scene is proven not to work. Right. And so we've gotta get better at training those individuals that are already on the scene, whether it be the law enforcement officer, SRO, whether it be a full time employee or substitute teacher, they all need to be trained to a certain standard. Let me ask you. So you said you heard the officer passing you. Is that do you recall any other, officers or other staff or adults passing you or kids running out the door? Or I didn't hear anyone run past me. I didn't see any, you know, I I don't think anybody else anymore kids came out the door. But I could hear. I knew the officers were right there. I could hear them. Okay. So, you know, if I hadn't I if I hadn't had my phone, to call my husband. I don't know what would have happened to me because I even if I would have set up, I don't know if they would have done anything to help me because I had nowhere to take me. Right. There was no ambulances there at the time. They weren't letting them in. Really? At the time that you realized you were shot, you say you you'd look down and you saw that your leg was bleeding, Can you describe, like, your, the senses that that you had, like, Is there a heightened sense of smell or or, you know, quietness or calm How did your body react to that? Because in a heightened sense of stress, your body does some very weird things. Do you recall what that felt like that things get very quiet? Or were you super in tune and hyper in tune to your surroundings? Can you can you explain that? It was a very quiet to me because I had just it's been so unbelievably loud. At that point, when I when he shot me and it and I you know, I don't even know I cannot remember if the fire alarm was still going at that point or they but it just was silent. I heard nothing All I knew was that I had to get out of that doorway with everything I had and it was basically just with my arms to crawl. Right. Since both my legs were shot. But I and I could smell. I remember I think I could smell the gunpowder because the fire and I could still hear them firing. I could smell the dirt. I was laying in the dirt, but, I could and I could hear the glass from the window falling constantly that had been shattered. Like because every time I would hear a piece of glass fall, I thought it was the shooter pointing his gun through the window at me. Right? When when you heard the first couple shots, you said it was loud at first, you you thought it was a a bomb. What do you recall what made you run? Because I'm assuming you I'm assuming. And correct me if I'm wrong, but what made you run I don't think I ran. You think you just walked? And I think I just I was already walking towards the door. Mhmm. And I After the first one, after the first boom, that I couldn't I couldn't comprehend what it was except a bomb. I just remember thinking the doors in front of you. Just have to walk out the door. Mhmm. And and was the fire alarm going off at this point? Yes. That's yes. It would have been going off then because that's what what got us out in the hallway. And the that's what was gonna be my next question is do you think that if the fire alarm had not been pulled that you might would you might have just held where you were in the gym after hearing. We didn't. Well, we didn't hear the shop. Yeah. We never heard the gunshots from the gym for some reason, and I don't know, you know, there was a couple rooms in between us and the art room. And then the gym's already noisy and the basketballs are bouncing and it So it was the fire alarm that that initiated you leaving the gym into the hall, then once you're in the hall, you hear the first boom. Yes. Okay. But it was the fire alarm that that was pulled, that, you know, basically told you to leave And I've always talked about that, is, you know, a lot of the times these these things can be used as a distraction. Or as a as a method to, get people out of where, you know, a safe environment into an open area And, I've always briefed people, you know, regardless of what the fire marshal says. I understand what the fire marshal says, and I'm not advocating anybody break any fire rules or laws. I'm just telling you from my perspective just because a fire alarm is going off, you know, I always tell people, just wait a second. Take a few seconds. Take a tactical pause and and and figure out what's driving you. You know, what's driving you to wanna run outside immediately? Do you smell smoke? Do you see fire? Just give it a minute because it could be a diversion and it's and you know, I know that that that where we all know that the fire alarm was pulled by a staff member who was had good intentions, and I'm not faulting that person at all. But, you know, I guess my advice to people would be is just to to wait. Wait. Just wait. Right. Wait a few seconds, twenty, thirty seconds, and just make sure that it is what it is. Right? Because it's that fire alarm that got you out into that hallway and then you ended up being shot. And so it's just an unfortunate series of events, you know. And Anne and I have both noted that we just had a far drill last week. And so that, you know, hindsight should have clued us in that maybe we need to I don't know what we would have done though. We still did not realize where the gunfire was coming from. Right. There was So you were shot in in the back of your legs. Is that Through the side? Through the side. Yeah. I guess I I I mean, I ended up. I have bullet holes in the front. Some I -- Right. How he managed that he, I crossed his path. I was when I was heading out the door and he was to the side of me in the hallway. I didn't see him. At least I cannot remember. Right. Yeah. And so this was a shotgun, obviously, is what he used. You know, one of the common weapons that we see in the United States is an AR fifteen being used in these particular types of events, but he actually was unique. He used a a pistol, or revolver. What I understand was a revolver and a shotgun, which is, very unique. And so know, one of the things that we talk about, you know, I'm I'm a second amendment advocate. I believe in the second amendment, but I also believe that we need to be responsible. You know, everyone talks about the NRA, everybody talks about the second amendment being our constitutional right. I truly believe that. But I also think that as an outdoorsman myself, someone who is a second amendment advocate, I also understand that we we must be responsible with weapons. And so one of the proposed legislation moving forward is to make it, illegal for an individual under the age of twenty one to purchase a long gun because right now I'm in the state of Texas, an eighteen year old kid, because I've got, I've got an eighteen year old. There's still kids to me. Can purchase a long gun, and it's never made sense to me being an avid outdoorsman and owning multiple weapons myself. Of why a kid can purchase an AR fifteen or a shotgun to cause you know how much damage. But they can't buy a pistol. And yet we have politicians on the right that are fighting that. It makes no sense. We have kids that that can't drink alcohol until they're twenty one years of age, why why allow them to buy an AR fifteen or a shotgun under the age of twenty one. If what what are your thoughts on that? Do you think that the age should be raised to twenty one to purchase a shotgun or a rifle? I I do. In our instance, our shooter got his guns from his parents. So what we have tried to do is advocate for the things that could have made a difference in our shooting. Yep. And so that's one of them that we've tried to advocate for laws that would hold parents accountable when their kids get their weapons. And that's gone nowhere. I got to me that's just common sense. You know, let's let's hold them accountable. Obviously, make them lock, you know, lock up weapons if you have underaged kids, it goes nowhere. Yeah. I I I agree, with you. I've I've you know, spoken to multiple legislators, you know, at the state and federal level, and I've been an advocate for that. I mean, know, I personally don't think that kids that are eighteen years old should be able to buy an AR fifteen or a shotgun. You know, I, believe that we we have to be responsible with our weapons. We have to be true stewards of society and and not and listen, here's the thing. It's not gonna stop everything. Right. But it would have stopped Yvaldi. That shooter bought two AR fifteen's at the age of eighteen years old. It would have stopped that one. Now could he have gotten it through other means? Of course, he could have. But it would have made it harder. The more difficult one can make it. Right? And so, you know, I I it really irritates me to hear people just say, you know, it's our constitutional right. Right. Well, when it's not you that's been shot or it's not your child that's dead, then it's easy to say that. You know? Well, another thing that enabled our shooter was that he could order ammunition. Yes. He ordered it online, checked a box, and said I'm eighteen, even though he wasn't. Mhmm. It was extremely easy. Thank goodness now. Actually, that was through Lucky Gunner. Okay. And because of a lawsuit that we filed against them, they have now changed that, and they are verifying age. Right. So that that's an important step. I mean, it At least if you can't at least you can't get the ammunition if you can get your parents done something. Well, I think, you know, what we're I think what you and I and and Scott and others, we're we're fighting. We're con we're gonna continue to fight. I'm not quitting. And I know you guys are not gonna quit either. I'm I've made this my mission. We're gonna continue to fight for these things. And, you know, raising the age to twenty one, I'm gonna continue to fight for that because I think that's what we should do. Mhmm. You know, people make the argument. Well, our law, our, military kids, eighteen, nineteen, twenty can can go to war right, but they're never left alone with a weapon in a training environment. They always have, you know, military supervision while they're possessing that weapon and handling that weapon. And they go through a significant amount of training. They have mental health training. Yes. And, you know, the shooter in Allen, Texas. Mhmm. Just a couple weeks ago. Yeah. So he was let go of the military when he was in his basic training still for mental health issues. Right. And so I'm just so frustrated with our politicians when you have you know, they ask myself and other subject matter experts, and then people like yourself who've experienced this to come in and talk about the things that we need to change but yet we provide this information based in facts based in research and data based in personal experiences and then they do something completely different. Mhmm. And, you know, I don't know how we change that. We got to just keep fighting and keep plugging along, but I do appreciate the small steps that we've made with you know, changing the legislation for subject, for substitute teachers to require them to be trained just like a full time employee and have access. So that's a small victory. SB eleven, you know, I had high hopes for. I can tell you that the way that we testified in support of and and help draft that bill, it did not end up the way that it should have been. And what I mean by that is talking about the compliance component of schools required to do audits every three years. And and doctor, Martinez Prather is correct. The Texas School Safety Center does not have a regulatory component. So that makes me ask the question why would the governor or why would the legislature give the Texas school safety center that responsibility if they have no authority or teeth to enforce in the first place. Right. There was no teeth in SB eleven, and that's why we had uvalde. Absolutely. Nothing in nothing in SB eleven prevented Yvality from happening. And it should have. It should at at least slowed it down the doors should have been locked. At least he couldn't have as walked right in. But in the house report, on uvalde, they said that they left doors unlocked for the convenience of substitute teachers who did not have a key. And this is four years after SB eleven. Four year or three years after SB eleven, four years after y'all's tragic event what are we doing? We have to continue to keep moving forward. One of the things that I've been advocating for is an office of inspector general. To oversee this compliance component for the state that direct directly reports to the governor. Now we have a new chief security officer that's over TEA. Although I believe that that's a that's a step in the right direction, This has to be completely separate from Texas School Safety Center, Texas, education agency, a completely separate regulatory agency so that there is no conflicts of interests. Now once personal feelings get in the way, and you're just enforcing the rules and the laws. You know, we notice we know that after Yvalde, you know, like I said, eleven hundred and ninety districts only a hundred and ninety, hundred and eighty, something like that. We're compliant maybe close to two hundred. We're compliant with the the the mandate from SB eleven from three years prior, actually four years prior when it was passed. And then, But they said they're compliant Evality said they were compliant. Yvality wasn't. But they weren't. They really weren't. Their P. Was, but their their auditing wasn't. They were not yep. They were substitutes did not have an any way to access -- Right. -- schools. And that's why it wasn't locked up. Yep. And so what are we doing? I mean, it's it's so frustrating for me to continue to be fighting this fight, talking to you, talking to Rosie, talking to other victims. Having laws or mandates on the books, but who's overseeing that? You know? There's no accountability. There's no accountability. It's it's too big. There's multiple ways that we could be doing it more effectively. But I've had I mean, I've had flat out agencies tell us we don't want this data. We don't want this data because we have a duty to report if we have it. And that therefore makes us liable. And so that's that's hard to swallow when you're talking to an agency that's supposed to care about this stuff. And I'm not saying they don't care. You know, liabilities just comes with the job. You have to understand that, you have to accept that. You've, you know, you're taking on this job. You want to fulfill the shoes of x, y, and z, then guess what? The liability comes with that. And if you don't want that, step aside, let someone else do it. Right. I'd be happy to do it. But I don't think that that's what they want because they know that I'm gonna do it, and I'm gonna hold people accountable. And and so it really begs the question. People say they want accountability but do they really want accountability? You know? So we're moving on, What what are your thoughts on, you know, training staff to a certain standard of, you know, basic first aid CPR, chest seal application, tourniquet application, everybody having the same standard of of of training. What are your thoughts on that? I I hate that That's something we have to do. But obviously everyone needs everyone in a school needs that training separately. Yeah. I think, you know, one of the things that that that we should be working on is that, I mean, in reality, let's, let's be honest. I mean, if someone were to come in into this room right now and cause harm to one of us, which one of us is gonna be, or who's gonna be able to render aid sooner one of us in this room or a law enforcement officer. And so same thing applies to school setting, you know, which is why say that it's important to have every staff member trained to the same standard, whether it be in through the SRP or have access to the keys, understanding, you know, what the difference of the lockdown and secure and shelter in place, hold, and evacuate means. And then getting into the medical component of, you know, chest seal applications, tourniquet applications, AEDs, first aid, CPR, whatnot, Having people the entire staff trained to that standard is a force multiplier, not only in your school, but even outside of your school. I mean, You've got grandkids. Go to a trip with your grandkid. You know, kid gets injured or someone else gets injured. You know, imagine every teacher in the United States being trained to that same standard, being able to render aid to to people inside and outside the school. I do believe that it would it would reduce, you know, deaths in these particular types of incidents. So, you know, that's something we'll continue to fight. But, tell us about, was it Houseville four thirty five? Yes. Tell us about Houseville four four thirty five? Well, in our situation with our shooter still alive and not going to trial. We've had families have had no answers. Many of the families who lost their loved ones, they were not even given an all tops report. We haven't seen any footage of what really went on, during the shooting. And we have not seen what the law enforcement response was in our hallways. We as an uvalde. We we have not seen any of that. So four thirty five would give that information out to the victims. It's not to be made public. But just to the victims and their families. Right. Yeah. I think that that, for a lot of people, you know, having the ability to know what happened to their loved one is huge. You know, it's They don't know how they die. They have no Well, you can't. You know, I mean, part of the grieving and healing process is having that information so that you know, you know, how your loved one passed. I'm really happy that that that bill. It's it hasn't passed. It has. Oh, it that one did pass. Yes. The governor has signed it. Okay. And that was just this week. Yes. Okay. Because I know, like, you know, our good friend, Rosie, you know, I I I check on her frequently her son was killed. Chris was killed in Santa Fe. And for her, that's been one of the biggest hang ups to part of her healing process is she didn't know how her son died. I mean, she knows he was killed by gunshot, but She didn't know where, the when, the how, the who. She doesn't know the details. And some people may not wanna know those details, but I think for her and for people like her, those are important details. Even though they're hurtful to learn, I think that she now that she has this information, that she can start this healing process of moving forward. You know? A little bit of the closure process. Yeah. I'm super happy that that that the governor signed that I'm really, and and grateful for him because, you know, us at our level you know, you're in a completely different space than me. I'm an outsider looking in. I know that that would help me. You know, that would help me move forward and the healing process. And I don't think her or any of the other ones have been able to to really move past that because they didn't have that information. So We're. Yeah. We're very person to mays Middleton who wrote the bill. Yeah. Got that. And also a representative Bohnen. Yeah. Push that through. Yeah. Mays has been very instrumental in this process I'm really happy to call him a friend and to continue to work with him in this process. I really wish that all politicians were like him. Because he is truly someone who takes the time to listen. You call him. He calls you back. Yes. You know, you text him. He texts you back. He listens to you as a as a subject matter expert because whether you believe it or not, you're now a subject matter expert. You know, inadvertently, but having the ability to have the, you know, to to bend his ear and talk to him about some of the things that need to change. And we're we're still working on a couple other things. There's some things that I'm still hoping that he can help me, you know, we can kinda address some of these things moving forward, but having his, you know, ear helps Yes. You know, it really, really does. We don't always see eye to eye on everything, and that's okay. I think that's what's wrong with our political landscape right now throughout the United States is that we need to just agree that sometimes we have to disagree. We don't see things the way that the other sees, you know, And that's fine. But at the end of the day, we still are all Americans. We're still texans. We still have a, a duty and an obligation to do what right by people, not by Republicans or not by Democrats, but by people. And so, you know, so tell us real quick, and we're gonna start wrapping up here shortly. But how have you overcome some of the stress and anxiety? Like, what How how do you get past some of that? I mean, just if you had to say for other victims or we know there's gonna be more victims. You know, this is not going away. How do you deal with that? Personally, There you have so much survivor's guilt when, and being able to continue the advocacy. And, even though there's very little movement, but it's something that I just continue to fight for And that's helped me. It gives me a goal. And before the shooting, I was a big runner. And that was a really great way to get rid of stress. And so I've started to run again. I run again. Not as not as much. But it's a little harder now. But, that helps in meditation. I've taken up meditation trying to get my mind cleared at least for a few moments a day. Right. And that's helped significantly. What about any particular type of therapy are you I've tried them all. I've tried them all. I've tried them all. And and they do help somewhat at the time and it does help to talk to a therapist for me. So that I understood I'm I'm I'm not crazy. This is PTSD and -- Of course. -- I also am a member of a group on Facebook called the rebel project. And this was founded by Columbine survivors. K. And it's only survivors of shootings in this group. That's been very helpful. Knowing what other school shooting survivors have lived through and what they've dealt with over the years and the ups and downs. Really just just talking to them has been extremely helpful. Good. I think I think talking about this stuff getting to a point where you can talk about it is is key. I mean, for me, you know, mental health is a real thing that people whether it be stress induced or whether it be, you know, biological, you have, you know, mental health issue. For me, was stress induced. And one of the best things that I did was go speak to a therapist myself. You know, and it's it's it's funny, or not necessarily funny, but it's very ironic that for me having worked in such a high stress, high, energy, and and and fast paced you know, career, having been put in, you know, stressful situations and and having, you know, high standard to always meet. And then, you know, go into the school district and then same thing, you know, different high expectations and whatnot. And and we talk about the patterns of behavior in people And, we talk about one of the things that usually sets these people off to either want to hurt themselves or hurt others is a triggering event. With the Santa Fe shooter. I don't know. We don't know really what his motive is. I don't have any information. You know, either your quality shooter, we're learning more about him, and then we've had multiple since then. But, you know, for me, two thousand twenty, I went through, you know, my father had just passed away. And, I think that I'd had decades of stress and trauma. And then that triggering event for me was my dad's passing -- Mhmm. -- which led me to kind of going down this pretty dark path. Right? And, I started recognizing what I teach other people in myself. And, you know, it was so very self destructive, and it was me finally realizing that I needed to go speak to someone that helped me in realizing that, hey, it's okay. Even the strongest of us need help occasionally. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So for me, it was going to talk to someone for you. It seems like it was more self healing, you know, where you you kinda isolated yourself, and then you started kinda evolving through this process, through, like you said, meditation, talking to other victims. Yeah. And that's what it is. Having because no one else on the outside really can under stand. And so having having other victims that you can communicate with Yeah. Because I can sit here and talk to you about it all day long, but I truly don't know what you've gone through, what your emotions are, You know, and I think that's a that's a common mistake that people make as they think they can relate to you. We cannot relate to you. But other victims can. Yeah. Because you've all experienced the same anger, you know, all of the seven signs of you know, of grief, you know, anger and emotion and and, you know, isolation. Right. You know, all those things. Don't hold me to. I don't know all seven of them. Well, and, you know, and they're different triggers for different people, but we all comprehend what those triggers mean and what those setbacks are. And you know, and and now every single, we have so many shootings now. Yeah. And I I know I hear about them all. And I think so much of the public, it just kinda now it just washes over them, but it's -- Yeah. -- you feel like It's like you get traumatized every time something else happens. I know what it I know what that fear is when you were in that shooting. Yeah. And so I it puts me in there. It puts me in, you know, at that outlet mall. And Alan. I you it's just it's visceral, but they're going through. Yeah. That's a shame. It's we we're living in a in a different time You know, and I think people need to realize that that, you know, we're we're probably not going back to a more stable America. Anything, it looks like we're heading to a more disruptive and more violent -- That's scary. -- America. And I think people need to take a deep breath and realize that we're all going through the same stuff. You know, we've gotta help each other out, you know, in whatever way we can. So last question. What's the one thing that you would recommend to school districts or not necessarily a one thing. What what if you had to tell school districts how to make it better. For staff, for students, for parents, and it can be a five minute converse a five minute response or a fifth five second. What do you think is the first thing that they need to start doing? They need to realize it can happen to them. K. I think that is the number one issue. No one ever thinks it can happen at their school. If you were really, really scared that this was an imminent thing that could happen, a shooting could happen, I think they would react differently. I think they would make sure those doors were locked. You know, you you protect your kids. You go around at night. You make sure all your doors are locked. You're making sure no one's getting in the house. That's the way because it's I mean, it could happen and that's the way they need to act. They just cannot comprehend it because it's too terrific for you to comprehend. You can't put yourself out there, but that's what they've gotta do. They have gotta act as if that shooter is on their doorstep. Yeah. You know, and I know I said that was the last question, but it it kinda leads me into a lot of the argument is we don't have the we don't have the funds to do that. You know, and I've I've been telling people, you know, you can't wait on legislation. You can't wait on a pot of money to just fall out of the sky for you to do these things. Right? And even if you do wait legislation. You know, it's we're in the eighty eighth legislation right now. Let's say that they do allocate the funds needed for schools to, you know, do these things. Those funds probably will not be available until next year. Every day that you wait is another day you're increasing your risk of something happening. You know, everyone thinks that that, you know, solely we need to be looking at active shooters. Every active shooter before they became homicidal, at some point, was suicidal. And so we have a duty and obligation to prevent kids from from killing themselves also. Because there's a very thin line between suicidal and homicidal. And so it goes back to what we've always said. Like I said, what we've always known is behavioral patterns, you know, Santa Fe shooter. He exhibited these things. Oh, and he walked around dressed in Columbine attire. With the, you know, the long coat and born to kill shirt, and they allowed it. Right. We know that we have individuals that are going around talking about lessons learned from Columbine. I mean, I'm sorry. From Santa Fe. We have individuals walking around or going and presenting in certain conferences talking about lessons learned. How do you feel about that? People like that have no soul. I mean, that is if you are doing that and making money, that that is blood money. You were making that money off the death of children. It's horrible. The administration that was there at the time, do you feel like they did enough before and after? Oh, no. They did not do enough. Definitely not enough before. I mean, there were There was even a letter sent to the administration when we had that lockdown. I mentioned that said the substitutes are not prepared. Synthia Tisdell, like, was having a hard time. She couldn't lock her door. She had nowhere to go, couldn't get to another classroom. So one of the teachers sent a letter to the administration if we have an issue. They did nothing. What do you think about? Immunity that's granted sovereign immunity that's granted to these school districts. You think that if that was revoked that they would start taking things more seriously? Down. I I understand it to a to an extent because a lot of parents get upset about the way things are done in schools. You don't wanna a ton of lawsuits, but if you have children dying on your watch, something went wrong. Well So Yeah. I mean, let's let's take miss Tisdell, for example, Parkland happens in February. Y'all have a scare. A letter is written that says that substitutes are not prepared. They have no way to lock their classroom doors. And then a month and a half later, you have a tragic incident at Santa Fe High School where miss Tisdell, a substitute teacher, and miss Perkins, which uses a substitute teacher as well. And you, a substitute teacher, three substitute teachers now wounded and deceased because no one took the initiative to address that. Right. Therefore, I think that someone's negligent. So we'll see how all that plays out in prosecution if this individual ever goes before court. But if they had that concern that potentially they could be held accountable, I think they would act differently. I agree with that. You know, I think sovereign immunity has a place. But in these particular incidents, there definitely needs to be accountability. You know? I always tell people, you know, and I used to catch a lot of lack because you know how I was. I was very involved, very hands on, and that frustrated a lot of people. And like I used to tell them is I I have a duty and an oath to protect everyone in this facility. Whether they be a staff member or the student as if they're my own family, I treated that campus or that district Every single kid was my kid. Every single staff member was, you know, I treated like a spouse or a or a friend. Because we have a duty and obligation to make sure that they all go home safe. And I think if we think that way, then more things will get done. So any last comments? I appreciate your time. Yeah. This is great. I mean, you've done so much for us. You've been a great supporter of us this past few years. I I really appreciate your appreciate you. Thank you guys. We appreciate it.