Legal Business Development: Authentic Relationships Can Foster Trust and Long-Term Relationships

This is this is straight straight straight out of Crumpton with your host, Greg Crumpton. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of straight out of Crumpton. I'm Gabby Bar, and I am with year, Greg Crumpton. Greg, how are you doing today? Gabby, I am doing remarkably well. And I'm and I just looked at the calendar in total disbelief that it it's already one week into November. And mentally, I'm like, you know, early September ish So I don't know what happened, but, we we've had a great fall. I've I've so enjoyed, this this year and the fall, and the weather's been really cool and, being nice, not cool, but just a little bit a little bit fallish So I'm just digging it, man. I'm I'm digging the whole fall scene. The colors are beautiful out here outside my window. So we've got a A great guest today who's been a long time friend of mine and business associate slash partner slash dot connector cool, cool lady to hang out. So tell us a little bit about her, and then we're going to get going. Sounds good. Well, as Greg was saying, I am excited to introduce Shannon Hames, she is the director of business development at hole and Chandler Law Firm. How are you doing today, Shannon? I'm doing great, Gabby. Thank you guys for having me on. I appreciate it. Shannon, you know, this is a very high pressure, situation. So you better have your game based on a day, girl. Here you go. I'm ready. We're, I'm really, excited. I know it took me forever to get around to get this schedule with you just because of my lack of days ago behavior, but I'm glad you're finally here. You know, I was thinking about it this morning early. I got up Johnny had to go run some errands, so I was sitting in there having coffee. And, I was thinking how long you and I've been connected. And then I started thinking about all the cool people that we've been able to connect, because we know each other. So I would that that to me was kind of what brought us together. And, you know, throughout I don't know. I'm not gonna say how many years because It makes me feel old, but, you seem to be getting younger by the day. So I think that's a great thing. But why don't you before we get going too too quickly, tell us a little bit about you, tell us a little bit about Hall and Chandler, what you do, how you wound up working for a freaking law firm, and not be a lawyer. It's just a a really cool story. So give us a little background. Okay. So, Bennett Hall and Taylor now eight years. And I got to hole in Taylor, my background is primarily in nonprofit work, And, I worked in the homeless shelter. I ran a free preschool for kids from public housing. I did development work for homeless kids I did some time raising money for substance abuse prevention. And then my last non profits didn't I did drop out prevention with the police department and the sheriff's office here in Charlotte. And so it's random that I ended up here. I got into for profit work I went to work for a board member who wanted access to all my contacts because he realized that I kept in touch with people. And I liked to meet new people, and I loved to help people. And I ended up at Hole and Seumler because I had met one of, the attorneys she was very techie through my networking, and they decided they wanted to hire a business development person. And then eight years later, here I am. And, I attribute sort of my dot connecting as you say sort of to my upbringing I'm from Banrell, because the mountain is in North Carolina. And I grew up in a community where people help each other. And That's how I think you're supposed to be. And Greg, I know you're very much that way. The very first time I met you, I recall it was rainy and Greg gave me an umbrella. I'll never forget that. And I'm a total stranger. So was it airtight umbrella? It was a burgundy airtight umbrella. So I used to do a lot of that because that's how I got my umbrella is, kinda positioned around the city for advertisement. So I'm glad it helped, and and I have to confess it was probably a bit opportunistic on my part, but I'm glad you remember it. And it was a good umbrella. I still got some of them. I used them. Yeah. Now I I do wanna clarify for our listeners that all of those, tragic and and and circumstances that you, laid out of of what you did is not how we met. I was not at the bar meant when we met. So No. I I like the crack. Great. Uncle will know me, and they'd be like, of course, you met you at the police department. So Yeah. Anyway, thank you for for, the background. And I do highly recommend Hall and Chandler. They have been a personal attorney, company attorney for me and my and my wacky stuff, I do. So great great group of people. They made a good choice in you for sure, but alright. So, banner elk, walk us through how in the world you got from banner elk, to the big city of Charlotte, North Carolina. What was that journey about? Well, I I tended Queens for undergrad and grad. School. And I actually came here for a guy. So that's how we do college, which is not the best reason, but it's the truth. So I I bet you're the only person ever to do that too. I'm sure. Probably. My my niece's went to queens. I don't know if you knew that. I don't have it really. My sister has twin daughters, and, they did their master's work at Queen. After they re we showered area. Yeah. Great school. It sounded really. It was a good experience. Alright. So just to to set the stage, banner elk is way west way up in the mountains. Charlotte is the big city to a lot of people. Because I guess it's the second largest city in the state. Maybe Raleigh's probably first. But alright. So keep keep the journey going. I didn't mean that a rock. I just got excited there. No, no, no. I well, I I attended queuing for you. I was trying to find something that I could do the tour I could give back to people and my first foray into the job world. I worked for, Habitat for Humanity, Charlotte three on three, which was a basketball tournament that a bunch of Davidson alumni put on so that they could give money to Habitat for Humanity. And that was when I was in college and, sort of found my love of helping people and decided, okay, I'm gonna find something that's just about making money because that's not really a fit for for me. But more of what can I do where I can build a relationship and rapport and keep international people and just try to help people? And, again, that worked in nonprofit, and that very much has worked for me in for profit work. Gotten two referrals so far today, and it's eleven fifteen. So You go. Yeah. Yeah. That's why Nathan made such a good choice. See, because you're you're bringing in work before lunchtime. I mean, come on. Yeah. Alright. So, I I think that your statement that you just said that it works in nonprofit and it works in normal business. It I think it works in life, you know, because people you look at I was thinking about this. There there's a couple of apps around, like, the Next Door neighbor app or whatever. Those those folks help each other through recommendations, like, for our plumber, for roofer, you can't gain that kind of exposure and that kind of advertisement and those kind of referrals, either you try, you know, that's gonna come from, excuse me, That's gotta come from the personal experience people have with your company in order for my neighbor over here, Michelle, to recommend her plumber to me, who was awesome, by the way. The dude is from England. He comes over here sets up shop. He's one man show happy as he could be. Yeah. He comes in. I won't go into the whole saga of buying somebody else's house and moving in. But anyway, we had to have a plumber. But, you know, he couldn't have gotten that that kind of recommendation, had he not performed and then had people not recommended him. I didn't find him on Google. I didn't find him on anything. I found him from my neighbor. And I think that people disconnect with people, and they value that personal experience so much. And, you know, even down to me giving you an umbrella, you remember that. God knows how many years that eight, I guess, because you had just gone the hallway chandler, I think. But it is the little things that stick out, you know, that people remember. You know, I remember the guy's British accent, you know, the plumber He did great work, and I know he's a plumber, but I remember him because of that. So what do you do that's memorable or what do you have that's memorable? It's what makes people stick. So I guess I need to get some more umbrellas Gabbies, that's the Great. Alright. So the umbrella story, I'll just tell her real quick because it's on my mind. I used to walk around with umbrellas on in Charlotte when I had my business in Charlotte, and I would buy umbrellas, buy the hundreds, and I would go in the restaurant like, on a sunny day like it is today with an umbrella, and I would lead two of them in the umbrella stand by the door. In that way, when people didn't have an umbrella and they thought they were stealing it, they were actually helping me advertise. So there you go. That's my my guerillo marketing tactic of the day. That's awesome. Alright. So you you take this, journey to Queens and and you figure out, you're gonna you know, you wanna help people making monies and port it, but it's not everything. What is it for you that you you've called me many times, and I've called you many times and said, hey, you gotta meet this lady or you gotta meet this guy. What is it for you that pops where you want to help people, you know, because sometimes you meet people and they're complete turd heads and you don't want to help them because you're like, I don't wanna expose my network to that. But when is on the good side when you wanna help somebody spend their network or, you know, market themselves. What what what traits or what characteristics do they have that make you say, I wanna help this this lady or this guy. Well, I think that they that they are open to meeting new people and that they seem genuine. And I think more than anything else that they're I feel like I'm meeting an authentic person and not the representative. I think that's really important. I I, yeah, I was actually talking with one of our attorneys earlier today that people come to work and they try to put on their best faith. I mean, it's part of coming to work. Right? You're going to a job. You're doing a thing. But I think that some people do a better job at being their most true and authentic self. And I think it's the more people you meet more you network, the more you can sort of discern who those people are. And, again, helping those people be successful is fun. Right? Yeah. Helping to mute someone. Yeah. So Yeah. You're right. Because if if you hear, you know, like, maybe a year later, you're with somebody and they say, hey, you referred so and so to be, and, you know, they helped me with x y or z. That's such a cool little little dopamine just to know that you helped on, you know, without and I think you for me, anyway, I have to give without expectation I'm not trying to get anything out of it other than to promote for the right reason because that always and and I've I've learned the hard way if you're doing that for not the right reason, it'll bite you in the butt every time or it has maintained away. Yeah. It the one of the things that my mom, like, often would say to me as, like, when I was a kid, she would say it's bread on the water. You're always passing down to the next person and it may never come back to you, but still doing the right thing with the right spirit and trying to help someone else is And the other thing that my mom does, you know, show you all my momisms, does that, other people's behavior is about them. And who they are, and your behavior is about who you are. And so it's good to be mindful of being the best you you can be even if it's challenging, like, even if you go meet someone who's not very nice, like, you still are able to do something for them because the part you're teaching other people. Right? Yeah. My immediate thought is I'm gonna I'm gonna do something for them, like, lose their number. But see here, you're much better than I am. Alright. We're actually positive. Well, I don't know, Greg. I mean, there there are those people that I really struggle with finding ways to be kind to. I still try to be kind, but it's hard to to wanna give back a lot to someone that I think is not very nice. Well, I think that that we as as, you know, seasoned folks in the business world, you you just decide where to put your energy and where you don't know, I'm not gonna burn a lot of time on somebody who I think is a jerk because they probably are. And they're pretty high. Then I really don't wanna dig through it to find out. Just Right. Prec present yourself in a nice way, and I'm gonna try to do that. And hopefully, we see eye to eye on some things and go have fun together. So Right. That the guy that that Gabby ultimately works for, I guess, is Tim Maitlyn. And, I I click with Tim because he's that kind of guy to meet. You know, I don't work for him. So she may have a different opinion, but, the guy, you know, when when you meet somebody for the first time for me, You know, they say you have, like, seven seconds and your your brain's already kicked in and it's a little opinionated self and it's making its, judgments or what have you. But I guess that's true because first impressions do matter. And I I can or I don't know if I say I can, but Ultimately, I do feel quickly or not or or feel quickly whether I'm gonna connect with that person or not. Sometimes round two of meeting somebody you've come back with a different deal, but, man, that that first time can be really, really I I don't even wanna say valuable, but telling probably is a better way for and and that's just me talking and my my wife and my preacher and everybody else work on me to not be so damn judgmental so quickly. And I'm I'm trying to get that in my, in my old age, but it's it really hits me like, god, really, or man, that's cool. One one of the other, I just don't have a lot of gray. But I bet Greg more often than not, when you've not trusted your gut, the chief found out that you should have trusted your gut. Yeah. Especially with Gabby, you know, I work. I'm just kidding. I I just wanted to get her see what she did So I gotta I got the proper response, Gabby. Thank you. No. You're right. I mean, it it's, you know, nine and a half times probably accurate, but Abraham Lincoln had a quote that is very valuable, and I have to remember it sometimes And he says, I don't like that guy very much. I should get to know him better. And, you know, that's so valuable to to take that step back because sometimes when we meet people, you know, they're having a a crisis that I don't know anything about or I'm having a crisis. They don't know anything about or most likely both are happening in this day and time. So it, it pays to just shut up and pause, and I'm working on that so hard. And my I've been working on it for years now. I'm fifty nine years old. So one day, one day, I feel it. It'll happen. Alright. So I'm really curious about this, Shannon, business development for a law firm is not like you're selling the the, you know, greatest app or or something really compelling that's going on in the world right now. You're selling legal services you're selling to me what you sell and how I view you as peace of mind is what I look at because Like, I had a deal not long ago where I called Nathan and said, Hey, I've got this contract. And I think I understand it but I'm not a hundred percent sure I understand it. Can you have a look at it? And, you know, he looked at it and and confirmed one time he confirmed what I thought, one time he says complete moron, and I was not thinking about it properly, which I love, because that to me is when when you have peace of mind, you know, you you've got a lot of stuff at risk. The older you get, the more stuff you have liability towards whether it be a cost of business, businesses, whatever. It's just a peace of mind, but that's how your services hit me. How how do you go about talking to people about legal services and how you can help them figure out if they need it or not? Well, I I I will say, like, my attorneys make it easy for me because my on the business side, for business owners, they'll do a free consultation with a business owner about whatever issues they have so that they can talk through and sort out because I think that, sort of, what differentiates us in the market is they understand that choosing an attorney is about choosing a relationship. And it's a long term play. And that's not something that people take easily because it's, going to someone else and being vulnerable and saying, I don't understand this, and I don't know how to do this. And I think I may have messed up, is the complex thing, and it's super personal. And I think that the whole attorney model is largely broken because law firms exist to assist people, but they create this impediment with the hourly billing model. So that people are paying them before they know them, and they don't have a relationship. So I think that that we're a little unique and that we'll try give people a, you know, a conversation and do a phone call, to decide whether or not we're a fit personality wise, and then if we've got acumen, or if we need to report to someone else, and I think that helps. So what when you have that, follow-up. So So Joe Smith or Sally Smith call you and say, okay, I'm ready to, I wanna meet Nathan or whomever for a consultation. They have the consultation. Your follower, with them, hey, how did it go? What are some of the words that you hear, in affirmation that they like it. You know, what are some of those? What what's the feedback you get in a positive manner? And on the other foot, like, what happens when people still aren't comfortable? Because uh-uh and because what you do is no different than what we do. I mean, We sell air conditioning service body hour. And so I'm just curious what some of those what showing the feedback words or what that sounds like coming from illegal, no versus or or legal yes versus HVAC. I I think one of the things we'll often hear. And again, particularly with Nathan and, probably TJ and and Liz and all the folks on the business side is that they were good listeners. That they ask good questions that they felt like they understood their problem. And I think that very often, people, again, they need to feel heard and not criticize. And because again, if you're seeking out an attorney, clearly you're in trouble and you're in a in a sort of fearful position depending on what the issue is. So I yeah. So I'm I'm curious about When does that word trust start to, crossover? When do people it's probably different for many people. But what when do you feel like that trust is exchanged. When do when do people let their guard down and go, okay. I know that TJ's got me or Lewis has got my back. When when do you think that happened? Mean, I think it happens. I think it's kind of, as you said, Greg, it's in that first, that very first interaction. I think that people can perceive, okay, this person is bright enough and caring enough to listen and help me with my problem, or they're not. And it's just not a personality fit. And And sometimes it's it's not a personality fit, but I think it's better to work through that on the front end than to venture into a relationship with someone that you don't have much in common with and you think differently and you behave very differently. I think it's better to Again, it's it's much like dating. It really is. I was I was likening that to people who I have personally known my life that have been dating someone and going to counseling. I'm like, okay. If you're dating and you're going to counseling, There may be an issue. I don't know if why we keep going down that road or not, if it were me, you know, because. Anyway, We we talk about that trust exchange sometimes of of how quickly or how slowly it I can't hear you. Yeah. I think your mic cut out. I don't know what happened. Oh, it looks like you're on mute. On, like, your on mute on market scale studio. About now? There you go. Hey. So this happened to me a couple of times in in studio where all of a sudden shit changes. So Interesting. Yeah. Because I wasn't even touching anything. I was just talking. Yeah. Okay. I'll I'll flag that. Alright. Flag it for twenty five minute, Mark. So let's box up. Alright. Three, two, one, you know, Shannon, I I kind of, we we talk about trust and we talk about the exchange and how quickly or not quickly that happens, but people were vulnerable, you know, when they wouldn't go into an attorney a lot of times. I just wondered if if when you're in a little bit of a crunch, are you quicker to trust people that sound like they know what they're doing and feel like you feel like they know what they're doing versus if I'm working to try to sell somebody in air conditioner. I wonder how much that emotion kicks in to saying yes or or maybe even saying yes more quickly than you would in another situation. I never thought about that, but that vulnerability may may be a a piece. What what did you study at Queens. What were you psychology or were you marketing or what'd you do? I I was in undergrad, I was communications, and I have a master's in strategic communications there. Because you were throwing down some stuff while ago that I thought Navy psychologically or or psychological sociology, psychology. One of the two, studies. So probably Psychology. Probably if I What is the difference between psychology and sociology? Is it the study of people versus the study of people how they act? What is that? Psychology is the the study of the mind and then the psychology is like how more behavior based and My dad taught college level psychology, and my uncle is a psychologist, and that's a a family thing. He said lots of reading in that area. I'm so glad that was not my father. We probably would have driven him more crazy. So what is hot in the lawyer land? What what are things people are interested in? What's going on with people where they need a attorneys right now. Is this, pandemic related, money problems? What what's going on in the world? It says we're seeing a lot of murder and acquisition work, like, a lot. And there's a just a lot of activity with people, you know, again, buying and selling businesses. We've seen an uptick in collections work So people calling and saying, this guy, I did this work, and he owes me ten thousand, or he owes me thirty thousand dollars. We've got again, oh, you know, we had a call the other day. Someone owed, owes eight hundred thousand dollars So again, a lot more calls that are litigation related around those kinds of things. It's always kind of interesting to see what a turnies are working on based on what's going on in the world. You know, you don't think about them being related, but they really are. Because during economic downturns or economic troubles, you do see people working on collections more And, you know, in small business, people know how important collections are. It's like, you know, you've gotta have that cash flow to keep the doors open. And we as small business people, historically, and and it's the weirdest thing, about people and money. People hate to talk about money. They really do. You you you have to deal with money in your personal life. There's no doubt. But even, like, professional salespeople don't always feel comfortable talking about money. And I've never understood that. Because I think you have to talk about money upfront and often in your business conversations because if I'm selling a product to to Gabby, and it she's looking like she's gonna buy or sounding like she's gonna buy, I'm gonna have the money conversation with her in that. I'm not worried about scaring her off. It's what I hear a lot of sales people say, why do you wanna talk about money and scare them off? Well, all you're doing then is delaying the inevitable no. If you're not willing to talk about it because if she's buying, she already in her mind thinks I gotta spend money at And if I'm selling, I've gotta be thinking about she's gotta pay me. So let's just go ahead and talk about that early and get get that done. Where you can work on the deal where you can make sure that what I'm selling works well, deliverables, all that crap because in in my history, my my personal history, things are going the poop's gonna get into fan one day no matter how well things go. You're going to have that situation where Gabby calls me and says, hey, either I didn't feel like I got what I bought or, you know, your guy was a jerk or something's gonna come up. And if you've already had that conversation, then it's a whole lot easier to handle the poop, getting it out of the fan because you already had that initial burden conversation about money. I I find that, sales people are often hesitant to talk about money, the people that I've heard, hired in the past for sales, it's just not a thing. And, I find that interesting about people, you know, Alright. Do you how I guess my question then kind of what what I'm trying to get at is how do people Or are they hesitant to ask you about, well, how much does he charge? Or how do how does that work for y'all on on the money? They although they are, it it kinda depends on the situation and who the consumer is that, like a business owner because they A business owner will have had at least some experience with an attorney prior to getting to us unless they're a startup and we're doing their initial work. And then that's a different conversation. But a business owner will already know that they're gonna have to pay for legal services, and there's gonna be some fee associated. That the where the conversations are more challenging. We do, nonprofit work. We do estate planning work, we do cross real estate, the places where the chat where the conversations are more challenging are the places where the where the buyer isn't someone who's done a lot of legal work in the past, because they don't really know how much things cost, and they don't know, for example, if it's gonna be, you know, two thousand dollars to get their estate planning done, that may seem like a lot of money to someone who's a business owner, and he does he's not accustomed to spending that much money at any one given time. But again, as you said, it's still better to get get that off the table. I agree with you a hundred and ten percent, say that people know whether they wanna buy from you or not because it's more efficient for everyone for people to move on if it's not, if you're not a fit for them. And again, I don't see any, you know, we're not a fit for everyone And I'm happy to help them find someone else. And that may sound like a strange thing. But again, the you're you can't help everyone but you can help them find someone who could help them. Well, yeah. And and I I get that too, Shannon, commercial air conditioning is not like residential air conditioning. So you if I've got a friend or a colleague that says, hey, I need help, we go out to a house and we give them a three thousand dollar proposal and they go, holy crap. My neighbor's brother's son, you know, gardener said he could do it for three hundred dollars. You should do that. If that's what you're comfortable doing because hiring an attorney or hiring a licensed and bonded you know, HBC company is is a different different animal than just hiring somebody who thinks they can help you or or Maybe they went to law school for a quarter and failed out or whatever, but it's, yeah, I had to lunch with a a old friend of mine yesterday who has been through the ringer, with tax and, divorce and all kinds of craziness luckily that he has come out of it on the other side and still got his wits about him and ready to fight for it and know that he knows he made some mistakes along the way. And I was just thinking when you were talking about people being in a vulnerable spot and having to go to other attorney. We don't even know how they feel you know, when I think about my friend and what all he went through, and I know how hard he's worked in his life to get to that point that he was at. Versus where he now finds himself. That is a very humbling exercise to to have to go through and you see that firsthand. I would have to think, Sean, that, you know, a lot of your conversations probably aren't all rainbows and unicorns. Oh, they're really no. And the thing is is that, like, I guess one of the things, you know, I actually was thinking about all the way in today that I think I think people, when they get in a in a mess, whatever mess that is, whether it's divorce, or it's a business situation where they fill out with their business partner and they need to separate or they need to sell their business or they're at arrears and they're gonna have to declare bankruptcy in their business. They feel a lot of shame. And it's it's a very difficult thing to feel same and then have enough energy to do something about the way people feel, if that makes sense. And so I I think acknowledging that it's difficult for them to reach out Right? That's a that's really important. And then I think being as non judgmental as you can, right, in your willingness to assist because they don't need your judgment. They don't feel good about needing you anyway, right, helping them sort of work through that. And and then letting them know again whether you can help them great. And if you can't, then you're gonna try to help them find someone who can assist them, I think, is really important. Yeah. I'm I mean, I think about people who sell, services at a funeral home, but I can't think of a more challenging job, emotionally and psychologically than that. Yes. Most people are going to buy from you because they need you, but I just I think about and I, you know, I've been through that with both of my parents. It you're not in a state where you want to buy anything or maybe you had it set up previously and you've got just a few decisions to make at the end, what have you. But, man, that psychological state of the buyer. And I I've never thought about this a lot till we're just during this call because you know, I sell something that people need and want, which is service. If I were selling mortuary services, you're selling to a whole different crowd for a whole different reason, obviously. And I would the EQ involved in selling to those people and helping them at the end of of, you know, somebody's life. You've got to really mind your your mindset and have the right mindset in order to because you're really helping somebody at that point. You you're not just think I mean, I I wanna say the people who I have in my head want to help people not just sell a coffin, you know, or service But in order to help somebody through those difficult times, I mean, I get emotional health and people freaking fix their ability air conditioner. You know, I I believe for them internally about having to spend money on on big purchases or wrestling with okay, do I do it now? I'm thinking about selling the building next year, you know, kinda rustled through that stuff. But when somebody has passed, you're I would think your natural human side would want to be I wanna help them get through this difficult time. God, that that's such a, bifurcation of where I come from daily. You've given me a link about Shannon. They you back to your point. Right? The we we've got a young attorney who does probate work, and he really enjoys that. And what's interesting is is that, again, he can take that quagmire of all the things you have to do when your loved one passes away and sort of unravel all that. And if you've never been through that, you don't know. Like, that you have to post things in the newspaper. And you've got to reach out to these people and you need death certificates for a, b, and c things. And again, having people who care about people to shepherd them through that process. Because as you said, no one wants to buy anything at that state, everyone wants to think about that as you're grieving about, again, especially when it's your parents or a family member It's such a such a tragic scary time. You just used a great word, though, the the shepherding through is that's a good mental picture of how you can truly wrap your arm around somebody and walk them through it, you know, without being the cold kind of a salesperson. Now they always gotta get a PO in the door, you know. It's like Right? We're doing it all for the right reasons. Alright. Well, that's good. I'm glad we went down that nasty rabbit hole of emotion. So let's, let's pull ourselves back to reality. What do you do to promote a law firm. How does that work? You're out and about a lot. I know because I'll see what you do hosting and and interacting. What when you sit down, and I guess you probably do a yearly thing. It says some goals and targets because you gotta go beg for money from the boss fan to attend everything. Right. And I call that professional begging because we all do it when we're trying to celebrate it. What do you think about how how do you think about reaching people? Is is yours more one zero one interface? Is it social media? What's what's your what's your go to? Like, I wanna make sure I do a good job on this because it's historically worked well. So I but it's a combination of all those things. So I really like one on one interactions. I'm actually in the grade we've talked about this before. I pretend like I'm an extrovert. I am not. I am much more on the introverted side. Like, I'm really good at making relationships, but I very much prefer one on one interactions rather than the one to many, although my job calls for the one to many some, but I it's not where I prefer to be or go, I recognize the need for it. And really what I prefer is to to meet people much like I meant you through warm introductions from people that I know like and trust. Because out of likelihood, if that person introduces me, then I'm pretty lip pretty likely gonna like that person too. Because, again, it's someone I know that sent them to me. And and that's how we found the most business success, over time. And again, I still go to things where there are lots of people on occasion. I make it a point to I'm invited to a bank event to go to the bank event because there are lots of business centers there. And I, again, that those are good places, but, Yeah. I just think meeting people and then doing the follow-up is critical. Your business, a lot like the air conditioning business, has its its share of people who are not good for the industry. It and and I mean, in the attorney world, the more opportunistic firms who are out there But, you know, you know what I'm talking about, the the I mean, for lack of a better word, ambulance chasing the folks, that equivalent for me are people who are out trying to represent air conditioning, the air conditioning industry doing shoddy work and unlicensed and uninsured and all that. You need to output those in the same boat, although they're different. It's just people that you don't naturally want to associate your business with. And forever now I have been working to, I guess, get rid of the black eye of of my in the Street because, you know, people say, well, this guy came out and quoted me five thousand dollars for a system. And my, you know, regular guy did it for thirty three hundred or whatever, you just have to make sure that you're educating along the way is is what I've found works well by drawing the delta between you and You know, the guy was seven seven seven seven seven seven seven seven seven on the billboard to call for anything. Down here is all of nines, by the way. In Greenville, but it's, you know, I think education works well in that environment, but it's like freaking, you know, hoeing a pot apple field in Ohio or in Hawaii, you know, you're just continuously working on the industry's perception or or or the perception of your industry, do you have that same, like, thing in your head? Like, you have to combat the that stigma, or are you far enough away from the billboards to where it doesn't impact you? No. I mean, we we do have to overcome the stigma. And the thing is is that And actually, like, we see it, like, internally when we hire new lawyers because I think that so I would argue that there's kind of two different kinds or types of people, like generically. There are a relationship oriented people, and then there are transaction oriented people. And I like relationship oriented people. They get long they get that it's long play and that we're gonna know each other a long time and we may do a transaction together, but we may have opportunities to do things going forward. In either way, I wanna be a resource to you, however that looks. And I think that there are a lot of, bad attorneys out there, you know, as you said, ambulance chasers, who have been about the transaction. Like, what are you gonna give me? Like, what am I gonna get? And and I think that that that what gives the industry a bad name rather than saying, okay, how can I be of assistance to you? Right? And we we can mutually work together toward a goal. And I think that that that's a challenge. And and again, we sometimes we hire attorneys and they come in with that transactional mindset And, again, Nathan works with them to try to ensure that they see things differently. That, again, our goal should be to work come alongside the client to help them meet their goals. Right? Yeah. I'm I'm, I'm just thinking back on evil that that that thou powered in life and, that when you kind of, spoke to the different types of people, I can see that. I've never really put them in those categories before, but it's so true, because salespeople often compensate it off of a commission, you know, by what they bring in the door. And until they understand the mission of your company or your firm, sometimes they bring stuff to the table that you don't want to to to dissect and then eat. You know, it's better that somebody else has the pleasure of doing that kind of work. So I guess, you know, there's I didn't realize there's this many parallels between attorneys and air conditioning, but I'm in the this is in my head now. So Right. Not that I'm going to go to legal school. Don't worry. Nathan's secured. No. You're just thinking about people buying, I guess, it really comes down anything. You know, I think about buying a new car or truck, and I often use the the analogy to our salespeople, benefit versus a feature. You know, I don't have kids. So there is no benefit for me to have a rear seat entertainment system. That is strictly a feature available in the car. A benefit for me is a super duper adjustable driver's seat because my back is so whacked. I can contort myself to the different ways following driving to relieve my back. That's the benefit. So until you can start, you know, seeing what people need, you know, in in in your position, what what do they need and who to best place them with when in within the firm too. You've got that at your disposal of being able to say, well, they need this specialty and you know, diverting them to the right person internally. So, man, well, they're not. That's so cool. Yeah. But I guess the other thing on say Greg, even though, like, clearly we do personal injury work. Right? That and, clearly, that's more transaction, but we're fortunate to have attorneys who understand that that's still a relationship, that that same person who may have that transaction, right, they may need your help on this one thing. That person may need help six years from now or may have a neighbor. Again, it's perceiving that the relationship is really what's sacred. That's what that's what's most important. It's not a one hit wonder. Right. It's not a one hit, but I'll Yep. Exactly. No pun intended there. That's alright. Well, Gabby, you've been quiet. You've been sitting up there. Well, you've done a lot of nodding. So I think we're we're talking a language you get because I know you well enough now to where this resonates with you. I feel like you are a relational person. Would I be right or wrong? I would say most definitely. Yeah. And I would say I also connect the most with other rene relational people as well, like, on top of that. Because I definitely understand the transactional people versus relational people. I think that makes a lot of sense. And, you know, I think it's interesting I, like, Greg had said with the tie over between, you know, a law firm and HVAC that, like, he kinda didn't really think was a thing before having this conversation. And, I mean, even just listening to the conversation, there's I work in in marketing and, like, platform media and the tie over between HVAC and law firm and marketing platform is crazy. And I think, you know, part of it is because there are kind of similar departmental crossover type deals. But that's definitely a big thing. And I think you know, with a lot of companies, especially for sales team, if you have a company that has sales, a sales division within it, Those relationships are really important and sometimes it's really hard to I mean, even for me as like a relational person, I don't do sales. But I feel like if I did do sales and I was getting commission off sales, I it's I could see it being potentially hard to kinda keep that relational mindset and not get sucked into the idea of, like, oh, I'm gonna get commission off of this. If this goes well, you know, and kind of switching that mind frame a little bit more towards the transactional because, you know, everybody wants to do well and you know, a little bit of extra money in your pocket, especially if you have a family to take care of and things like that is is never a bad thing. So I could definitely see how you know, in multiple different work environments, that transactional mindset could even if it's not a transactional person, and it's a relational person could very easily kind of switch if if that mission is not understood and that, you know, kind of underlying reason as to, like, why you are doing what you're doing and what these people that you're working with or you're working for actually need and are actually looking for because, you know, obviously, the crossover between, you know, our three industries and businesses is were very different, but at the same time, at the end of the day, our mission is to help, whether you whoever you're helping your clients, your customers, whoever it is you're helping your your end goal is to help the person that you're working with or the person that you're partnering with. And I think that that can be really detrimental to businesses and, you know, as far as Greg, you were saying about the overall idea of in the stereotypes of, you know, the HVAC industry or of law firms in general. That transaction mindset can really expand those those negative stereotypes that aren't true for every law firm or maybe aren't even true for more than half of the law firms in existence, but that transactional mindset was so strong in, like, a few here and there that it then ended up becoming something where now people maybe don't want to use a lawyer because they're like, I'm better. I'm better off on my own now. Well, remember though, you you said something. You are selling. Yeah. You're selling market scale. You're selling me. You're now selling Shannon because it we're associating. We're all guilty by association or we're all doing well by association. Yeah. So remember that you're always selling because people that and, hopefully, we've got more than our usual four listeners, but, keep, you know, you are selling, to to that point. But you're right. I love the the golf processes that we stirred up here today. Sean, we're running up on the top of the hour. This has been really cool to talk through and and learn some of what I didn't even think were common things, that we share. We now have a whole another layer to peel back mentally and think about. Really do appreciate you joining us. I do have to ask because Gabby's age, your daughter is how is she doing with her? Is she still tracking fielding? She is still tracking fielding. She's a little She's kinda not on hiatus. She fell on April. And, but she's thinking she's still gonna she my my daughter, Gabby, is a discus stower. Okay. And she still holds the North Carolina state record for discus. Wow. And she was training for the Olympic when she fell And so she's had a, attendant issue in her ankle. And so we're rehabbing that. And then I guess she's gonna try to regroup and continue to throw and try to make the olympic effect. Well, tell her tell her we wish her all the best in a re recovery and love to see her wearing a red, white, and blue. That'd be cool. Awesome. Thanks, guys. Thank thank you for taking time with us. Spent it really has been fun. I've enjoyed the conversation a lot. So, Gappy, if you would like to, start getting the horses corralled and headed to the barn. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, as, Greg was saying, thanks so much for joining us Shannon and you know, wishing your daughter the best in her steps to recovery. And like Greg said, hopefully, that Olympic training really pays off. And, someday we get to we get to wash her compete because that would be really awesome. I would love that. But thank you. They may not let us go viral at that point. Okay. That's that's true. But thank you again, Shannon, and as for everyone else. Thank you for joining us for another episode or straight out of Crumpton. For more episodes like this, don't forget to subscribe to Apple or Spotify Podcasts, And for all of your Greg Crumpton content, check out Greg crumpton dot com.