The Future of Data Centers: Cooling, Power, and ESG with Saqib Ashraf

This is straight straight out of Crumpton with your host, Greg Crumpton. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of straight out of Crumpton. I'm Gabby Barr, and I am joined by Mr. Greg Crumpton. Greg, how are you today? Gabby, I am doing phenomenally well. I am highly caffeinated. I've been up a while this morning drinking some really good common place coffee. And, getting a lot of work done. I got a I've got a trip, today. I'm leaving to go out of town. So I've been, you know, kinda frenetically flying around here, getting a bunch stuff done at the last minute, but, wanted to make sure that we took this time and and and made the most of the morning because we have a a special guest who we've been dying to get on here. But he had to get married. He had to go overseas. He had to do this. Have to do that. Then we had the holidays, you know, so but we're finally here. So, super excited about it. Fantastic. Well, to introduce our special and very busy guest, we have Sajib Ashraf. He is the director of solutions architecture at CPG. Sajib, how are you doing today? I'm Fantastic. I am excited to be here. Before I forget Greg and Gabby, congratulations on breaking the one hundred episode barrier. Thank you. A couple of episodes ago. So that's a big accomplishment, you know, so congrats on that. And Gabby, especially congrats on dealing with Greg. For not knocking at the subs. Alright. This has been fun. I hate to wrap it up so quickly. No. You know what? We we I think we have had a good time. Gavin's been here for not all one hundred because she Oh, that's right. She came in I don't know halfway through maybe or something like that. And just kinda continued what we started building with Tyler. And, You know, Eric, like everything else, it takes on its own, feeling. You know, what what Tyler and I did together was fun and exciting, and we had a ball. And then when Tyler had this other thing come up that he wanted to go do, Gabby jumped right in, and we just kind of like, just it morphed into what it is. And and, you know, when I talk to people that listen to our crazy podcast, they're like, man, it's sounds so authentic. Like, y'all don't rehearse it. I'm like, well, we don't. Maybe we should, but we don't. But we do have a good time, but thank you for thank you for the recognition on a hundred. Definitely all a huge part of its market scale, bringing it together, making it happen, Boris. So we appreciate it. Alright. And I guess, that disclaimer of no rehearsals here, that is a hundred percent factual. So you should, should have a good time here. Well, you know, I listen to a lot of podcasts, you know, for either for ideas or just to understand what's going on and you know, like I tell my wife, every moron has a podcast. And then she looks at me like, yes. I'm I'm talking about myself included. But there's so many different ways to do it. You know, there's these really scripted and and buttoned up and and tight ones And we do some of those on the service logic side if we're introducing new products or, you know, more more business, focused, I guess, for lack of a better term. But for these, man, I just find it works better. If we just flow and we have a conversation, we talk about, you know, like, how you and I even came to know each other And it it just kinda flows for me. I don't know. I just I dig it. It's fun and, enjoy having really fun people on. So before we dive in, why don't you, Sakiv, if you will, tell us just, you know, your history, how you got here, how we know each other. Whatever you wanna share. We're open. We're we're your doctor filled today. Alrighty, man. Just don't send me an invoice after the fact then. I would never do that. So how did I get here? It's a it's a really interesting question. So I graduated from, the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, two thousand thirteen with a degree in chemical engineering. Right? The summer before I did an internship as a process engineering intern, you know, working with career chemical engineers at a sugar refinery plan. And about halfway through that internship, I realized that, oh, no. This isn't what I wanna do, like, for the entirety of my career. It's like great work. It's meaningful work. But this is a kind of like grind that I would not be able to stay interested in for a thirty five year career. Right? Kind of the thought of working in one place kind of in one part of a process or something for forty years did not really jive well with me. I thought I'd get bored after two. Right? So get back, you know, start my senior year and, you know, recruiting is heavy, in engineering schools in your fall semester. So come, like, September, October, November. I was, interviewing for different positions to take on, you know, after, graduating in college, And that's when I got, a sales engineering role at, can I say, like, company names, brand names, Greg, is that alright? Absolutely. Yeah. So, I got a sales engineering role at Carrier Corporation, on their commercial sales division. Yeah. You know, in the Baltimore area. And, you know, I went through that, you know, ended up graduating, right, like I was supposed to, did did that job correctly. Right? Went to work for carrier, went through their, you know, it ended up being the right off the bat, like a twenty one week training program. Between Baltimore and Syracuse use where it was a lot of, introductory knowledge and, you know, a lot of technical discussions about how thermodynamics work in relation to HVAC, you know, the compression cycle, refrigeration cycle, what compressors are doing, what different types of compressors go. How they work. Right? So as, you know, a newly graduated engineer, I was like, loving it, really loving it, loving the program and everything, and then getting some product knowledge. So did that, you know, went to work, you know, in the Baltimore office, started out, you know, inside sales engineer, you know, did that, you know, for a little while, became, you know, a sales engineer with my own engineering contractor and owner accounts, got involved in like the local Astraiture, got involved in some of the other local organizations that were HVAC focused, while doing that, ended up going to business school, you know, have an MBA from the Johns Hopkins University. You guys, I mean, I know we're doing audio for the podcast, but you can see the penance like And YonBC, it's right here. Hawkins is right here. Right? That was that was very well coordinated too, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. I was, like, thinking about how I'm gonna do that. Just like just like that. Right? It was like gravel horns for a moment. So So I I was a carrier for, you know, a little over five years. And, my last two years at carrier, you know, there was a lot of talk about the data center. Right? And it was That would've been right. Twenty eighteen ish So twenty eighteen is when I left carrier, the twenty sixteen is when I started hearing the chatter. Okay. That'd be, well, Baltimore is about an hour and fifteen. Minutes with perfect traffic from Ashburn, Virginia. They have center out. Right? So you keep hearing about the chatter around data centers got engineering customers and clients that are, you know, designing data centers. So that's actually how I got my first exposure to, like, what a chiller system would need to look like for a data center application. And honestly, I mean, just the thought of like large these data centers are and everything. I I became enamored with the industry from afar. You know, I was I was hammered for a while, and, you know, I got an opportunity in, twenty eighteen to you know, joint CPG. He was kind of on a hockey stick growth, you know, at the bottom of the group, you know, where we're going exponentially. And at that time, y'all are still called capital power. Right? We had just rebranded to CPG when I came on board. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So I came on right around that first rebranding. Okay. And, I mean, gosh, the the just the difference in industries from like just your commercial and applied HVAC where you're doing k through twelve, off buildings, health care, and everything to the data center space, how specialized and how kind of like in the weeds you could get for something so At that time, I I thought it was niche, but it's really not. Right? I mean, it's its own beast. There's so many different styles of applications with densities and everything. Right? So joined CPG about, gosh, about five and a half years ago. You know, started out on their sales team focus more on mechanical solutions, you know, different types of chillers, outdoor heat exchangers, you know, selling, you know, both the product and, you know, turnkey solutions did that for a little bit. I think that's where we got introduced, Greg, when I was, specializing on, you know, the mechanical side of the house or CPG. Did that, you know, and then an opportunity kind of came to join the CPG pre construction services team where, you know, we're really turning around RFP responses as far as you know, turnkey, from, you know, whatever small scale, one or two rack deployment to, you know, a greenfield style Right? Well, that opportunity opened up, you know, took the took the opportunity, right? It was something brand new for me. I was leaving sales to go into something more. I I won't wanna call it production, right, but definitely more focused and more in a a pivoting to like helping support the sales team rather than being frontline testing. Right? More than stallative. Yeah. Exactly. So I did that for a little while, then, got another opportunity to, you know, work as a director of procurement at, CPG, and did that for a little while. And now I'm in my fourth role in like, you know, five and a half years, you know, it's directed solutions architecture. And it's it's been an interesting thing for me. It's far as every time, you know, I do it something different. It's not like I'm forgetting about what I was doing, you know, in one ball or two holes before. So being able to kind of pick up, you know, a new ball, but, you know, remembering how like the previous ball was bouncing. Right? That's been really enjoyable and really rewarding. And it's been a great learning experience for me as well. So it's a long winded answer to your very simple question. Well, that's my goal. See, I I get paid by the word. And, if I say fewer, you say more, that's a win win. Now I I I, when I think back on on your career, you know, me watching you, and since we met, I love the fact that you've done what you you just defined it picking up the ball of that was bouncing in the other court or whatever. That to me is I I call that compound knowledge so that you're learning about something that pertains to what you're doing that you get to carry forward. And, you know, that that's how you get really good at what you are doing is because you understand the foundational, requirements of what you're doing. You didn't just get thrust into your role now because you would suck at it if you didn't understand the three previous roles. Right. And, you know, that to me is, like, the ultimate and I I look at the German, apprenticeship model, you know, how they build their internal knowledge within a company, their tribal knowledge, And, you know, they started on the shop floor. And, a lot of those guys and ladies, when they get to a high level within a German organization, engineering, or construction based I'm talking about, primarily, they know how that company is built. And I love the way that you've gone through your, progression over there. So CPG, man, what a interesting story, that is because if you've been in the data center market a while, you know, there's so many people that have either been at CPG or been through CPG or are at CPG that have really, really strong foundational roots in Northern Virginia, and and in particular, going back to the lead technology days. You know, so many of the people that you've worked with and around, I knew from Lee Tuck, guide back in the early nineties, I guess, whenever John Lee started that company. So it's really cool in which to me is is you know, kind of our thesis here of what we like to talk about are the people that kind of touch you and guide you or you have influence with or of, as you go through. So who who do you look at as some of the foundational people who kinda put CPG where it is and on the trajectory that it is, even though y'all are private equity held now, So what what did what is that what is that foundation of that look like from your seat, you know, being there five and a half years? Yeah. I think it's, yeah, there was a couple of folks that were really influential in kind of the transition of CPG from your traditional, equipment reference to kind of the full solutions data center mission critical provider. Mean, a couple of them, you know, Jerry Jackson and Emtek was, right? I mean, those guys really transformed, you know, sales organization at the time, selling strategy, and hockey fund. Right? I mean, when I was there, I mean, those were kind of the two guys that were, you know, really, really involved And, you know, quite frankly, I've learned a great deal for both, you know, just kind of understanding that they built a career in the business. And just kind of watching them operate. Right? I mean, there's a lot to learn by observation. And, you know, it's it's nice. It was very nice to have watched them, you know, while when I because when I joined CPG, they were still very actively Yeah. No. I joined before the private, private equity line. So those two guys definitely, come to mind as kinda two folks at really help build the business and put the business in a position to transform. Yeah. Another fellow who I think about is, Jim Marsh, and I've got a call with Jim Lender today funny enough. While I'm driving, we're gonna catch up just after holidays kinda deal. Yeah. So it's actually is, he was my first, boss at CPG. So there you go. Next slide as well. It's a good view. I I haven't seen him in about a year. I think we were in Virginia, the, seven by twenty four last time I saw him, but Man, you know, we talked about the HVAC industry. And, you know, when you're talking about being in the Baltimore, DC market, we're carrier, which I, you know, I never knew that carrier had as, an intensive training program for new engineers, like, you know, you always hear about the train model, and train does a good job with their deal. But I've never and didn't know until recently that Carrier did that. And now I understand they're moving that training from Syracuse down to Charlotte where they're building the chiller. I didn't know that till recently. I heard that. So that's cool. But again, it's the people that you know that have been through those programs that are foundational to what you and I do most days. We we may not have known they went through train engineering program in nineteen seventy nine. But if you look deep enough, they're there. So Did you ever work around the guys at Noise's AC, NAC, in in DC. So I did not work around them. I had, you know, counterparts while I was at carrier that were, you know, calling on them. And obviously now, you know, at CPG, I bought a relationship with some of the fellows. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, you've helped make some of those relationships, forming. You've kind of made those introductions and quite frankly, you've probably bet up the relationship won't process by six to nine months. Well, I I think Chris Kaufman is just a cool dude, man. He's he's he's a good guy. Alright. So the the buzz right now in the industry finally, and I I'm I'm holding my hands up. It's liquid cooling. Not gonna be fun to watch develop, further develop. You know, I I was, involved in a startup. That was just about eight years too early. So I didn't get a payday, unfortunately, but, proof of concept was there. What how do you see the market, in the data center market evolving over the next couple of three years. And here's the question, really. This is what I'm trying to get at. Have you considered how much power are we're gonna be drawing from a server and the opacity involved in pulling that much power and how big a whip is going to be to power that rack. Have you thought through that to the wackiness that I'm worried about? So let me kind of start by answering a couple of parts of your question. Right? I I know a very seamless question. I can't believe you're having to chop it up. Yeah. No. No. I'm topping it up for my old benefit. Right? So, you know, as far as, like, where where the data center industry is gonna go in three years, I am so excited that conversations in the data center space are finally focused on cooling. And not just power. Yeah, you mean. I mean, it's like you're, like, we're we've been a silent majority. Right? Right? The cool guys that are in the room for for the longest time that everyone's worried about power or, I mean, worried about redundancy, worried about all these other things, which which are important. Right? I don't want, like, all my sparkies to get mad at me here that, like, oh, no, powers powers more importantly. Cool. I mean, well, y'all gotta keep it cold. Right? And that was like kind of a glossed over for many, many years. And I think it was like, you know, over the last twelve months as you know, all of this AI, the Chat GBTs, whatever you wanna like refer to, whichever flavor of the month, you know. That keep me feel it. The fuse did this. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Right? And so it's it's so fun to hear us talk about cooling. It's nice to go to these conferences, and we are talking about cooling. I mean, this now, they put on great shows. They had a cooling focus one in December. I was real. I was oh, I'm definitely going to that. Right? So where's the industry going? I think it's we're we're at an inflection point. It's where the supply chain hasn't really resolved itself. Right? We can talk about it. It's gotten better. Semiconductor chips and everything. There's still an issue. Long lead equipment. I mean, Greg. I mean, you're seeing it as like like I am. Right? Some area cool chillers are between fifty and sixty five weeks. Yep. Right? Generators are even longer. So we're The supply chain is going to actually help, I think, dictate how things are gonna be built. More than how things are going to build dictates the supply chain as was done in the past. Right? So I think there's one there's gonna be an issue there of, like, how are we gonna adapt around, you know, what's available. Are we gonna need small form factors? Are data centers going to be, you know, happier, you know, to be built around like a one and a half meg generator? Instead of a three minute journey, or are we going to start doing something like for the tier ratings identities, right? Or are we gonna do tier four certified or tier four compliant, right, based on what the lead times might be. You know, if we can get it faster, maybe people will go for know, a compliance versus certification or vice versa. From a load perspective, I'm actually very curious to see what happens. Because everyone's bringing in AI. I mean, like, you you type in email and Outlook, and it'll give you like a predicted, like, response, right, that you can just swipe through and finish off your email. And it's actually pretty good. You know, it's it gets there about fifty, sixty percent of the time, but that's gonna get better. So the loads are gonna be really interesting to do. I think we're gonna have to build more robust cooling systems around the data centers. As far as our to allow the data centers to be put in a position to pivot. Right? That, oh, okay. We have maybe fifty kilowatts of rack. Or we're gonna do seventy five kilowatts of rack. We're gonna do a hundred kilowatts of rack. Or we're gonna do kind of our traditional loads of between ten and twenty kilo. Right? The cooling systems are gonna have to be robust enough to, to accommodate that. Right. Whereas two years ago, I mean, What was what were we designing around seven and a half kilowatts of rack? Yep. Something like that. And running three. Running three. Right? Now, that how this is gonna change. So from a cooling standpoint, it's gonna be really interesting to see how we as an industry react to water back in the rooms itself. Right? Are we gonna do on our, you know, race floor is gonna come back because we wanna separate the server from water. Or are we gonna have different types of, you know, overhead sealing, overhead pipe runs with different types of drain pans? I mean, it's gonna be very interesting to see what happens from a cooling standpoint? From a power standpoint, kind of, to to answer the last part of your question, I mean, it's no secret that, you know, the data center industry is growing faster than some of the utilities in Kiva. Right? I think that What we're gonna see is we're gonna see more data center construction in, you know, different markets or the non traditional markets. Right? I mean, I think Atlanta is going to be a really interesting market to watch. You know, you hear about Atlanta, you're about Texas, you hear about the Midwest, you know, in Ohio, Columbus area. Phoenix has been a really hot market, you know, no pun intended, desert. But it's been a pretty, pretty hot market over the last, you know, two to four years, at least from what I've been seeing. It's probably been a hotter market longer than that. Then you're gonna have Ashland, Virginia, which is actually getting pretty full of data centers. I mean, you know, we're gonna be building in different areas of Northern Virginia. I know Prince Williams County, approved a pretty large campus development. Four hundred and thirty five megawatt. That's right. I think it was over like a hundred acres or or something like that. I forget the the acreage before thirty five megawatts there. So the power is gonna be really interesting to watch. You know, I I think that the utilities are gonna need to keep up and how they keep up is gonna be really interesting. But in addition to, like, all of this, right, we as a kind of a community not just like the data center community, but like the people community, the population community folks that don't realize, like, you know, everyone's got, you know, one or two of these guys they don't realize how much of the data centers, you know, are powering that. You have the cloud and all of that. But as these new, data centers are gonna be built, right? What are the sustainability requirements, Cathy? How are we building in a socially and environmentally responsible manner? I think that's gonna be a really interesting thing to see coupled with. You know, you have the ESG component and you have, like, the adaptability or the flexibility of the cooling, and then you're gonna have the power, but that ESG, right, it's gonna be you know, how are we doing this in a socially responsible way so that you're not disrupting populations, you're not disrupting the natural ecosystems, and you're not not adding, like, a lot of carbon. I mean, a lot of companies that make carbon commitments, right? So. Here here's the a question that'll piss off a lot of people, hopefully. Do you believe that companies are genuine and broad statement. Do are companies genuine in their ESG commitment, or do you feel like the bulk of companies are ESG friendly because they have to be. That is a question and that's gonna piss off a lot of people. Sure. Good. That's what we're here for. Yeah. So I I think it's Because It's a combination of the two, honestly. Right? See, that's how I feel. I think there's there's there's a split. There there's people who genuinely care. And then there's people who are like, whatever we need to say to get this built, we're gonna say. Yeah. The thing is, the people that genuinely care, I think, are in positions where they can told the people are that are just saying whatever they have to say accountable to what they said. Right? So if that's the case, I mean, I don't know that it really matters if someone is genuine or not and, like, their their goals of accomplishing, you know, as low carbon output as possible and everything else. Right. I mean, as long as they're, like, trying to meet the goals, Does it matter if they're sincere or not? I mean, I I don't think it does if the result ends up being No. That's fair. That's fair. You know, regardless their intention if the outcome is what you want, then so be it. No. That I I get that. I I just get really annoyed when I reach something on somebody's website that's complete BS because I know behind the curtain, maybe I know somebody there or I'm working with them, That's, like, such greenwashing that it is almost I don't know. It's a little bit of a turnoff, but you know, the people who are genuine, in wanting to reduce their impact on the planet, for whatever reason, man, it could be socio. It could be economical. It could be, you know, whatever. People mining cobalt in Africa, it it's everybody has a reason for doing what they do. But I just wish people could be as, you know, a little more forthright, maybe. Anyway, that's, I guess, enough on that topic. I and I don't mean this people off for the wrong reason, man. I just want people to be genuine with what they're putting out. I mean, I I think that's only fair. We as consumers should know where you stand and if you stand or something, say it, you know, like, whatever. Interesting. Interesting. So old dominion our our dominion power, you know, is the company up in Northern Virginia that has to build all of this infrastructure. And, god, they're spending eons of money on that, trillions of dollars in their future, build out. So that will be interesting. The other markets, you mentioned, Dallas, Phoenix, Atlanta, you know, that'll be fun. These things are all centered around people. You know, because regardless of how automated a hyperscale facility is day two, There's a lot of people required to get that puppy built and up and running. And I wonder if the lack of skilled craftspeople will continue to push these schedules out so that we're starting to have to be able to stack building not on your company's timeline, let's say that your company a and your hyperscaler, you wanna build three facilities in the next sixty months. How much are you gonna have to coordinate with hyperscaler b, who's your competitor, but still requires that same manpower to get their facility built? You know, I haven't I haven't really dove into that topic with anybody, but I I think about it, you know, how many electricians, can we put on-site in Atlanta if Prince William County is going Bauckers. You know what I mean? Because these are not, like, normal electricians. These are people who understand what we're doing and why we're doing it. In these facilities. So that, to me, the people side of that's gonna be really interesting to watch as well. Yeah. I don't think it's a coincidence. Sprite that, when hyperscaler a lands in a certain market and there no one's been there before, the hyperscalers b, colo provider a, you know, colo provider, b, everyone kind of follows. That's not that's not a coincidence, right, because of the labor, pool. That's there. I mean, there are a finite, number of electricians. There's a finite number of folks in the mechanical trade There's a finite number of folks that, you know, specialize in fire protection and security, right, local just cabling. You know, really, on the civil study, they made up pouring the patents. Right? There are a finite number of folks that have these skills, and it is actually going to be really really scary, you know, for folks that have commitments to customers as far as when they need to deliver by. Right? You know, the supply chain is like one issue at hand, right? And it's actually interesting because if you if you take this like this topic and you peel it back like another lake, right? There's a finite number of skilled folks that can build generators. There's a finite number of folks that can build chillers that can build rooftops, right? So it the people shortage isn't just really at the the construction point. It's actually getting all of the materials to the construction point. It's getting them transported, you know, getting getting or out of the ground. Yeah. Make copper tubing. That's right. That's exactly right. So I think I don't know. And, Greg, I actually hadn't thought about, you know, the cross coordination between hyperscalers. That's an interesting thought. I hadn't really digested that. So I don't wanna necessarily talk about that. But what I do have to think about. I mean, you really have to be, you know, I mean, you've been to hyperscale builds and a number of people on that sight is phenomenal when it's the full swing. You can't just go three hundred miles down the road and pop a new one up and expect to have the same degree of deliverable without some forethought of, okay, our our our precast guy is tied up for a year. We can't start, you know, we don't need to start site work because the precast is tied up because they're still pouring at side a. You know, there's I mean, it sounds wacky to think that we don't have enough people to build to our demand, but that's that's where we're at. You know? Yeah. And it's not just like the, the knowledge, with data center. Self. Right? One other thing that, you know, we don't talk enough about as we're moving from one market to another is that the way that folks in the, the data center space work as far as the, the emphasis on safety, the safety programs, and everything, you know, that comes with that it was great for me, you know, coming from more of a commercial and applied background, going into the data center space, It was very different, you know, for for me in a really good way. Right? I mean, safety should be, you know, your first and foremost priority you know, everyone should go home the same, like, that came to the construction site. Right? Or to the manufacturing facility or anything along those lines? Or about it. It's it is definitely different in the data center space. Right? So, you know, you have folks that may not be used to building data centers. You may not they may not be used to like running lips, you know, from fifteen minutes ago, you know, at the the sizes that may be required, but they're also not used to all the safety check. They may not be used to all of the, commission requirements. Right? Everything is a little bit more nuanced when it comes to a data center vote. With a more aggressive schedule, which is, you know, that's that makes everything just a little bit trickier. So I think what's gonna happen is we're gonna be racing, you know, as an industry, it's all gonna be a race to who can break ground in what market. Right? And then from there, the chips are in the fall where they fall. Right? I don't think it's unreasonable to suspect that, you know, electrical companies, electrical contractors, mechanical contract. Right, that are in Prince William County, Virginia. All it gets unreasonable that they may there may be, you know, folks on-site helping to build campuses that are from Maryland, that are from West Virginia, that are from Pennsylvania that are even from, you know, North the South Carolina, right, because where there may not be, you know, as much of a demand for construction. I mean, like, financial landscape right now. The interest rates are high, cost of borrow money is high commercial real estate is gonna slow down, right, especially with you know, how accustomed to remote work, some people that are, become, you know, need for office space may be diminishing, you know, over the next five, seven, ten. You're out. But these guys are still trades. They may be three hundred miles away. They may end up traveling in. Right? And now you're looking at a com you're looking at the, the learning curve. For bringing those folks that are traveling in, you know, on how to, you know, build for that customer then you're bringing up the cost. And, you know, the schedules may be, you know, may be they may be able to be maintained but the cost profiles are gonna change. That's right. You know, tremendously. Right? And it's it's this really evolving, like, I don't wanna use the word like calculus because it's not like you're not taking derivatives. You're not doing integration or anything, but there are a lot of movie pieces. It's basically like Tetris. Right? Instead of one one piece coming down, you got four pieces coming down at the same time. Or six pieces or eight pieces coming down at the same time. And they all have to they're all summer faster than the others. Right? And you all have you have to figure out how to move all of them in a place before it lands, you know, at the bottom of that plane view. So that's kind of there's no good answer. Right? No. We don't even know yet what the answer is. No. But I I think you're gonna see more punitive damages come where people are going to be penalized for missing deadlines, and they're going to be more possibly more selective about what they choose to engage in if they can or cannot meet the deadline. I think it's going to be really, bifurcating for the trades of who builds modular and who builds on-site, you're gonna see a lot of that, I think. I don't know, man. It's a freaking exciting time. I say this every week. It's an exciting time to be in the industry, in general on the mechanical side much less the freaking aircon, data center side, with refrigerants, with sustainability. I mean, there's just so many cool things going on. And, you know, I I talked to my friends at Dell, and and the the watch per chip that they want to deliver is crazy. You know, a thousand watt chips. Yeah. We just gotta get creative. You know, no doubt. I was writing a article or a yesterday, I was writing a thing about, ingenuity and how creative you have to get when the poop starts getting closer to the fan. And, you have to get creative when you're faced with these challenges of, alright, you know, okay. We can handle three hundred watts per chip right now, which we are. Five hundred watts, seven fifty. How the hell do you think about a thousand watt chip right now with our infrastructure? And you can't, very well. And Another interesting piece to me is the the, betamax VHS battle we're having right now with the with direct to ship versus immersion. Yeah. That's kinda fun to watch play out. I think everybody has their own you know, outlook on on where that's headed, which is it's just another piece of the puzzle, but these things to me all come down to people. You know, and they come down to relationships, and they come down to Like, you having a relationship with an end user, and all these millions of dollars that are getting spent still come down to you and, you know, marry or Bob having a cup of coffee and deciding two people. Here's what we're gonna do moving forward. I I find that so cool that all these big decisions happen But it really comes down to, you know, a handful of people in any situation having to make a decision and then standing by it. I think it's just cool. For lack of a better word. Yeah. The data center industry, you know, I mean, the HVAC industry, right? It's the it's a relationship based you know, the reality of it and, you know, mechanical contractor a, mechanical contractor b, you know, HVAC equipment manufacturer, a HVAC equipment manufacturer b. These guys, the offering gonna be like, you know, between ninety five and ninety eight percent the same. Right. You're gonna do a build out of a ten thousand square foot office space. Gonna put a v a v office or a v a v box in every third office. You're gonna have, you know, two stats per v a v box or one stat for three I'm sorry. One step every three VAB boxes, you're gonna put it in the stat in, you know, the person who's the head honcho. So he has control and the other two have to, like, you know, live with it. Right? And, you know, it's all very much the same as far as a product that's being delivered, but it's the relationship of, you know, who is, who can I trust? Who's gonna tell me that something is going wrong? You know, at what, you know, at a point where I can get I can jump in and help them solve it versus at a point where Now I'm waiting for them to solve it because I it's gonna have too many impacts. I have to worry about all the downstream effects. Right, rather than helping to solve the problem. And that's a that's a very oversimplified view of it, right, obviously. I think it's but it's accurate. Yeah. I I just think about, you know, are are we when I I look at stuff online, like, can buy a forty ton, eighty ton air conditioning unit online. What are the chances of that unit showing up with everything it needs or that you need if you're buying that piece of equipment online? Pretty dang slim, you know, because people think about air conditioning and and we talk about it here a lot. It's being a general umbrella. But there are freaking as many verticals in in, you know, HVAC as there are in health care. So my my worry, I guess, or my my concern is that we have to make sure that people are understanding how valuable these relationships are, and you can't email your way through a specification. You need to have conversation in making sure that I as the salesperson or the specifier understand what understands what Gabby needs in her space. I can't get that without spending one on one time with her looking at her current situation, understanding what she wants to do in her new space or with her new process or her new heat producing mold injection device or her new MRI she's coming out with or yada yada yada. I just don't want ever to lose that personal connection because I I've seen it for so many years of how important those are. And I don't know. I'm preaching. I'm preaching. People matter, and we have to make sure we keep those relationships healthy They have to be intentionally worked on, pick up the damn telephone and use it for what it was built for, which was talking into it sometime. All of those things worry me, not worry, arc of a concern. Yeah. I mean, I think part of it. Right? I mean, I'm I'm a millennial. Right? And, you know, I'll speak for for myself. Sometimes it's easier to send texts. Yeah. Right? Sometimes it is easier to just send an email. Right? And the benefit of a text or an email is that you may remember that you were communicating about a topic, but you don't remember exactly what you what the communications were and go back and Yeah. You can refer to your knowledge and you refer to your your phone. You can refer to the emails or whatever and say, see what exactly what's set. But we lose We lose a lot of time in written communication, I think. Sometimes you have to, like, do like you said, right? Sometimes you just have to pick up the phone sometimes you have to set up a call and you just have to have a conversation. We need to hash it out. A thirty minute call can save three days and twenty five Especially if you're using the the dictation software to help you so you can re you can still have your notes. Yep. You can have that conversation to get all those nuances. And when you hear that, yeah, You know, that sounds different than yes, because you know there's something queasy about what you just said you don't get that with a note. You know, you get a check mark or a yes means yes, but, yeah, means something different. And that's what I find so interesting about doing, solution work for people is when you get there and you you say something to them, like, your idea, you get to judge that reaction, not just by a written okay, but by was that a pooky face they just gave me or not? And, Yeah. I think I mean, You know, I mean, it's nothing new to the people listening to the show. I'm I'm an advocate for one on one communication. And I love a good text or an email when appropriate, but I also think that having that nuanced, verbal conversation to your point, Sakib can knock off a ton of time. And I watched my wife do this with her friends. I'm like, why don't you just call? I mean, you could've saved nine damn days worth of texting just by saying, yes. But, you know, that's just me. Well, I'm excited for you. We've got just a few minutes left, but Give us as much info as you care to on your recent travels and your recent life celebration. Yeah. So, got married in, in August of twenty twenty three. And, you know, we're sitting here almost, you know, a handful of months later. My wife still likes me. I was gonna ask if she's still there. Yeah. She is. That should start. She is. So that that's been great. You know, we had a a really, really large wedding celebration. You know, we did a very traditional pakistan style wedding celebration over, you know, four days, two cities, two weekends, kind of like we called it our wedding tour. One of my regrets is I didn't get t shirts made. Maybe I'll do that around our first anniversary. There you go. Yeah. Maybe I'd better write that down. Hopefully she didn't hear me. But now then we were, we were very fortunate that, you know, we we honeymooned, couple months after the wedding haying in. We're able to spend a little bit of time in Singapore, some time in Bali and, you know, just a little bit of time and assembled Turkey as well. So we really were able to kind of fly, fly the world together, you know, as a first major trip you know, after being married, it was it was really nice. It was a really good time. Yeah. I mean, Bali is is beautiful. Singapore is beautiful. Istanbul was beautiful. It's just all far, you know, sitting sitting here on the East Coast in the DC area. I mean, sitting on a plane for for that long is not the most exciting prospect, but the payoff is, is always quite worth. So you definitely had a great time. You know, I I'm so glad y'all got to do that, you know, kinda kick off your life together with that whirlwind. And then Like you said, taking time afterwards to kinda go have some fun because, you know, when I got married, back in the stone ages, we didn't do really stuff like that. Like, I took off Friday, I think. And, we got married on Saturday and and, I had to go to work Monday just because we were broke and poor and, all that good stuff that comes with mid eighties living, like we were doing. I'm so glad y'all got to do that. It's just such good start, you know. Like but I can't imagine because I've never done it. I've been to Europe but I've never gone beyond eight to ten hours on a plane. I've got good friends in Australia who are, like, you need to get down here. I'm like, Jesus, Louis, that's a long time for my lack of, attention focusing self to be on an airplane. But to your point, you know, the payoff the payoffs there, just suck it up and shut up. It's what I'm gonna do. Yeah. You should go, Greg. You know, it's when you're on the plane on the way there, you're excited that, okay. Like, yeah, I'm gonna be on a plane for a lot of hours, but What am I going to do? I'm gonna, like, be able to see the sights. I mean, we, we had so much fun. And we did a Sunrise tour halfway up a volcano. We watch the Sunrise, you know, about three thousand at three thousand feet elevation halfway up in a volcano that's still kind of active. Was still smoking, but didn't erupt. Thank god. Right? Was that was that Gabby volcano Gabby still smoking, but how did you erupted? I'm not getting into the middle of that one. No. But, you know, you you got your friends in Australia, and I was listening to your episode with, with Amy. I mean, about you taking flying lessons. And then you might as well just fly over to Australia and, you know, let the pilots know that you're an aspiring pilot. Yeah. I'll let Jim cop it. You know, maybe maybe you'll get some, a distraction of how much time you're in the air there. Well, I I fly American Airlines, so they probably wouldn't give a ding, judge on how sporadic their schedules are anyway. So don't do it as well. I'm sure your status is a lead as well. It really be, like, alright. My status is is right beside the baggage, you know. Like, we burst First class baggage is what I get. But, well, look, man. I hate the Russians, but I know it's it's a busy Monday. Lots of lots of stuff to do in the data center world, lots of problems to go solve and solutions to go architect, which is what you use. But I really do appreciate you taking time, so Keith, to come on with us and, you know, just talk about current stuff because it is you know, these things are important, to some people. They're important to you and me for sure, and how they're going to affect other people, I think, is equally important even if they don't see it on their horizon at the moment. But good stuff, my man. Congrats on the marriage. Thank you. Congrats on, you know, her still being there. My wife, oddly enough, thirty eight years coming up, still here. I don't know what's wrong with her. But, we'll take it. We'll take it for sure. That's right. Well, Gabby, there you go. Another successful outing in my book or or in my mind, anyway. How about you? Yeah. I agree. I definitely agree. We should go to Valley and do a remote one of these. Absolutely should. You're boss. I'm there. Usually, now I'm at the very for you already, Greg. I'll text it to you. That'll be a text. That'll be acceptable. I like it. Or you can call me. Love it. Love it. Love it. Alright. Well, gavs, I guess I'm gonna put on my straight out of crumpton hat. Your closing hat? I gotta send a couple of hats out too. The last couple of guests we've had, and including this young man, need one. So I'll be doing that later. Fantastic. Awesome. More to wear in it. Well, Sakib, thank you so much for joining us. As Greg previously said, congratulations on getting married. Congratulations on, you know, some really awesome travel that you got to do, officially super jealous because that sounds absolutely fantastic. But again, thank you for joining us. And we really hope have you on again soon. It was a really interesting conversation. And I gotta say there was a lot of stuff you guys were talking about that was a little little over my head, a little above my pay grade over here at market scale. But, interesting, nonetheless, I always like learning more, hearing about, you know, the data center world and where cooling really comes into play. It's not necessarily something that someone who's not in the in that industry would would consider unless, you know, kind of knowing all the pieces that are involved. So that's that's always really cool to hear about and learn about. So we I appreciate it. I know Greg does too, but I think I appreciate it for a little bit different reason because I'm learning. Greg is just thanks for having me on my Yeah. Exactly. You want me to come on, Greg, you know, I'm here for you. Awesome. Well, thank you again. And as for all of our listeners, thank you for joining us for another episode straight out of Crumpton, please don't forget to subscribe through Apple or Spotify Podcast for more episodes like this and check out greg crumpton dot com for all of your Greg crumpton content. This this is structured straight. Freet out of Crumpton with your host, Greg Crumpton.